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    20 Dec '05 01:40
    How do atheists explain this?
  2. Standard memberNemesio
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    20 Dec '05 01:45
    Originally posted by lioyank
    How do atheists explain this?
    Why would someone need to be an atheist to believe that a
    stigmatic appearance was a hoax? The Roman Catholic Church
    Herself denies the existence of the vast majority of stigmatas that
    claim the wounds came from God.

    Which stigmatic were you thinking of? Padre Pio?

    Nemesio
  3. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    20 Dec '05 01:511 edit
    Do purported stigmata bleed from the hands or the wrists?
  4. Joined
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    20 Dec '05 02:04
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Padre Pio?

    Nemesio
    And to think that I was going to include him in my opening thread. Always one step ahead, aren't you?
  5. Joined
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    20 Dec '05 02:12
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Do purported stigmata bleed from the hands or the wrists?
    Does it matter? Would you deny it if it occurred on someone's hands rather than on the wrists? Why do you ask this? Because Jesus' wrists were (supposedly) nailed to the cross, and not his hands?
  6. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    20 Dec '05 02:164 edits
    Originally posted by lioyank
    Does it matter? Would you deny it if it occurred on someone's hands rather than on the wrists? Why do you ask this? Because Jesus' wrists were (supposedly) nailed to the cross, and not his hands?
    I deny it out of hand, regardless of where the bleeding is from.

    But as a logical exercise, what needs to be reconciled is:

    A) The physics of crucifixation pertaining to the placement of the nails.
    B) The account of Thomas observing holes in Jesus' hands.
    C) The location of stigamata bleeding.

    Until one has a coherent explanation that accounts for each of these, one cannot believe in all three.


    D) The blood stains on the Turin shroud

    can be incorporated into the explanation for bonus points.
  7. Joined
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    20 Dec '05 02:22
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    I deny it out of hand, regardless of where the bleeding is from.

    Would this include the Padre Pio accounts? How would you explain what was seen there by numerous different people?
  8. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    20 Dec '05 02:251 edit
    Originally posted by lioyank
    Would this include the Padre Pio accounts? How would you explain what was seen there by numerous different people?
    First, give me a coherent explanation of A, B and C. This is a necessary condition for having a theory that Padre Pio exhibited genuine stigmata. Until you construct one, I have nothing to refute.
  9. Joined
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    20 Dec '05 02:43
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    First, give me a coherent explanation of A, B and C. This is a necessary condition for having a theory that Padre Pio exhibited genuine stigmata. Until you construct one, I have nothing to refute.
    What's the point? You already said you deny it, so what would I prove even if I had an argument for A,B,C?

    Besides, something as trivial as whether Jesus was nailed through his hands or wrists doesn't matter. The fact remains, there are unexplained events that occurred in San Giovanni Rotondo that were of a supernatural nature, therefore proving that God exists.
  10. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    20 Dec '05 02:49
    Originally posted by lioyank

    Besides, something as trivial as whether Jesus was nailed through his hands or wrists doesn't matter.
    It's not a trivial matter. If he had nails put in his wrists, why would Thomas have seen holes in his hands, and why would stigmata bleed from the hands?
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    20 Dec '05 02:54
    Originally posted by lioyank
    What's the point? You already said you deny it, so what would I prove even if I had an argument for A,B,C?

    Besides, something as trivial as whether Jesus was nailed through his hands or wrists doesn't matter. The fact remains, there are unexplained events that occurred in San Giovanni Rotondo that were of a supernatural nature, therefore proving that God exists.
    ?????? Your conclusion certainly doesn't follow from your premises.
  12. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    20 Dec '05 02:57
    Originally posted by lioyank
    You already said you deny it, so what would I prove even if I had an argument for A,B,C?
    That you have at least thought critically about the matter.
  13. Standard memberNemesio
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    20 Dec '05 03:11
    Originally posted by lioyank
    What's the point? You already said you deny it, so what would I prove even if I had an argument for A,B,C?

    Besides, something as trivial as whether Jesus was nailed through his hands or wrists doesn't matter. The fact remains, there are unexplained events that occurred in San Giovanni Rotondo that were of a supernatural nature, therefore proving that God exists.
    Until you define the criteria you believe should be in place to
    authenticate a stigmatic -- which will entail defining what happened
    to Jesus -- a discussion cannot take place because there is no
    foundation upon which to rest a solid argument.

    You also ignored my question: there are many non-atheists and
    even Christians who deny the existence of stigmatics. Why would
    someone need to be an atheist to deny a stigmata appearance?
    And, I'll add, what does their disbelief say about them as theists?

    Nemesio
  14. Joined
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    20 Dec '05 03:13
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    It's not a trivial matter. If he had nails put in his wrists, why would Thomas have seen holes in his hands, and why would stigmata bleed from the hands?
    Ok. Let's for a second pretend I agree with you.

    If you don't believe in it, what do you propose causes it?

    ("It" being Padre Pio's "stigmata/bleeding/whatever the hell you wanna call it"😉
  15. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    20 Dec '05 03:152 edits
    Originally posted by lioyank
    Ok. Let's for a second pretend I agree with you.

    If you don't believe in it, what do you propose causes it?

    ("It" being Padre Pio's "stigmata/bleeding/whatever the hell you wanna call it"😉
    I don't believe that it actually occurred. That is, there is no physical phenomenon to explain. He was also purported to be able to be in two distinct physical locations simultaneously, such as in Paris and in Rome at the same instant. Do you believe this actually happened? I don't.
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