28 Sep 11
Originally posted by googlefudgeOn this thought of deflecting and asteriod, the Bible answers this for us...
Actually it wasn't an argument against the bible.
I was arguing that the claim that not one problem we could face was not solved in the bible is ridiculous and wrong.
That is, as I understand it, not supposed to be the point of the bible.
It is supposed to be about how you should live your life (from a moral standpoint) and how to achieve 'salvation ...[text shortened]... ) problem that we can encounter as a human that the Bible cannot help us with. "[/i][/b]
Ecclesiastes 1:4
New International Version (NIV)
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
Here is God's promise that the earth will be here forever. No matter what scientist think will happen or what HollyWood puts on film, God will protect our home the earth to last forever.
So the Bible does answer even this ridiculous claim......
28 Sep 11
4 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Let me ask you honestly Jaywill, who established the trinity? Is it not true that it
was formed by the church fathers. Who are the church fathers that they should seek
to impose their exegesis on scripture? Were they inspired by God to pen any
letters? If it is so fundamentally important to your belief, why is it not explicitly
stated in are a sincere believer, admirably
so, you must think about this thing deeply, prayerfully.
Let me ask you honestly Jaywill, who established the trinity? Is it not true that it was formed by the church fathers.
As long as you do not deny that Christ is God incarnate, it is not important to me whether or not you use the word "trinity" or "triune God".
Attacks on the Person of Christ in centries past forced the ancient brethren speak in terms of some theological terms like trinity and hypostatsis.
Who are the church fathers that they should seek
to impose their exegesis on scripture?
Attacks on the Person of Christ were successfully defended. Arius was a heretic who wanted to teach that Christ was a created god and not God. Today's Russellites follow in that same heretical tradition.
Probably it was attacks against the Deity of Christ which gave rise to several non-scriptural yet effective terms to discribe God's nature.
And the three-one God is an effective term to explain both what was in the revelation of the Bible and what was the experience of the Christians.
The terms may have caused some troubles. We realize this. But the ancient Russellites who opposed Christ and preached "another Jesus" caused more serious denials of the truth.
Were they inspired by God to pen any
letters?
The church "fathers" did not have to write Scripture in order to point out some accurate truths in Scripture. Their theology does not have to be on the same level as the canon of the New Testament, in order to be useful.
Everything they wrote was not useful. But those who defended the Deity of Christ against the early Arians and proto Russellites, I believe, were used by God.
If it is so fundamentally important to your belief, why is it not explicitly
stated in scripture?
What is fundamentally important to the gospel is that we RECEIVE the living Christ into our vessel. This is a matter not found in any human thought. For God to indwell man, is a truth from God and not man's invention.
This is very very difficult for some religious people to understand, including Christians for whom the matter has taken place. It is easy to be as the OT Jew or the Moslem. That is to believe that objectively, out there somewhere, there is the one true God. That is true that OUT THERE, above, in Heaven, there is the one true God.
But you are stuck there and have not moved on with the New Testament. In the New Testament we have the God who has undergone a process to enter into man to be man's spiritual life.
"But we [apostles and all Christians] have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us." (2 Cor. 4:7)
The TREASURE is the living Christ. The EARTHEN VESSEL is the human being. To have "THIS TREASURE IN EARTHEN VESSELS" is to possess the living God INWARDLY.
This is not just the "one God" out there, only objective - to be feared, bowed down to, served, believed on.
This is the God Who has undergone the process of incarnation, human living, death, resurrection, ascension, and life imparting, to be the indwelling God.
"the last Adam [Christ] BECAME .... a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
I pray that one of these days, these words will jump off the page at you and you receive mercy from God to SEE the revelation. Christ is the God who came that you might have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10). That life, that divine and eternal life is just Himself. He became LIFE GIVING Spirit.
So we have "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Roman 8:2) .
We who have believed INTO Christ, KNOW that God indwells us because of the Spirit that He has given to us.
"And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (1 John 3:24c)
"In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit." (1 John 4:13)
Christ is the Holy Spirit today giving us God as eternal life. The Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17)
And the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45).
When some outside the experience come opposing the New Testament and complaining about the confusing "Trinity" it is their lack of experiencial enjoyment of God's indwelling which is their problem.
You may not understand the Triune God because you have never received Christ into your heart. When Christ came to me God became real to me. I can detect NOT DIFFERENCE between Christ and God. And the Bible itself reveals that One lives within the Other. They coinhere. They live within one another.
"In this we know that we abide in Him [GOD] and He [GOD] in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit" (1 John 4:13)
Christ teaches us about fundamentals, our relationship with
God, our relationship with others, how to cultivate humility etc etc why does he not
mention the doctrine if it is sooo important.
When we receive Christ into our human vessel, Christ Himself becomes out humility. We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us. See (2 Cor. 4:7). See the whole book of Second Corinthians.
God is triune in order to dispense Himself into man to make men "partakers of the divine nature" (1 Peter 1:4)
The REDEMPTION of Christ is so extensive, so effectual, so effective, and so propitious before God that it brings people to become "partakers of the divine nature".
We are not only forgiven. We are made participants, partakers in the divine nature of God which is planted into our innermost spiritual being as a "seed."
28 Sep 11
Originally posted by galveston75Here is one scripture that says the Holy Spirit has a name:
Lol...Where is "one scripture" that says the Holy Spirit has a name? Just one is all I want to see..........
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
28 Sep 11
Originally posted by RJHindsSo....where does it say a name in this scripture? What is it as I don't see a name printed here...
Here is one scripture that says the Holy Spirit has a name:
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
28 Sep 11
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillnot one honest answer to any of my questions,Let me ask you honestly Jaywill, who established the trinity? Is it not true that it was formed by the church fathers.
As long as you do not deny that Christ is God incarnate, it is not important to me whether or not you use the word "trinity" or "triune God".
Attacks on the Person of Christ in centries past forced the ancient breth ted into our innermost spiritual being as a [b]"seed." [/b]
1. who formed the trinity - emptiness
2. who are the church fathers to impose their exegesis on scripture - bereft of reason
3. why does Christ not mention the doctrine, - deviod of anything
4. why does Paul not elaborate on the doctrine - - nothingness
all in all is this what one has come to expect from a trinitarian, obfuscation, evasion,
emptiness and a real lack of reasonableness. I dont of course blame you, its the usual
emotive response when others are pressed for reason and have none.
28 Sep 11
Originally posted by galveston75So galveston75 would do nothing about an asteroid headed for earth.
Here is God's promise that the earth will be here forever. No matter what scientist think will happen or what HollyWood puts on film, God will protect our home the earth to last forever.
So the Bible does answer even this ridiculous claim......
28 Sep 11
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not one honest answer to any of my questions,
1. who formed the trinity - emptiness
2. who are the church fathers to impose their exegesis on scripture - bereft of reason
3. why does Christ not mention the doctrine, - deviod of anything
4. why does Paul not elaborate on the doctrine - - nothingness
all in all is this what one has come to ex ...[text shortened]... se blame you, its the usual
emotive response when others are pressed for reason and have none.
1. who formed the trinity - emptiness
The Father is called "Eternal Father" (Isa. 9:6) . Who formed the Father ?
The Holy Spirit is called "the eternal Spirit" (Heb.11:14) Who formed the Holy Spirit ?
The Son has not beginning of days nor end of life (Heb. 7:3) .
Who formed to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ? I say no one formed God. God always was and always will be. The Triune God always was and always will be. So the Trinity always was and always will be.
Next question ?
2. who are the church fathers to impose their exegesis on scripture - bereft of reason
That is a loaded question. It suggests it is always an imposition and not proper teaching. It is an imposition to teach the Triune God on you because you are a heretic following Arius. It is no imposition of the truth on those who love the truth.
Hermas (A.D. 40-150) is is recorded to have quoted 2 Cor. 3:17 - "Now the Lord is that Spirit" - The Shepherd of Hermas, Similitude 9:1
Theophilus (A.D. 115-188), a bishiop of Antioch, was the first to use the word "Trinity" in Theophilus to Antolycus.
Tertullian (A.D. 160-220) was the first I know of to use words like "Substance" and "Person" to explain the Trinity. The use of such words is not on the same level as the canonical statements of the Scripture. But they can have some limited help to us.
I am sure that is much more history that could be discussed. It is a Red Herring argument as far as I am concerned.
It is obvious that you intend to flatly IGNORE the Scriptures showing that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God. So what difference does it make who first wrote about "Trinity" ?
3. why does Christ not mention the doctrine, - deviod of anything
This is another loaded question. It implies that God is triune only that man may have a doctrine.
The Scripture shows that the Word was with God and was God. The Word became flesh. And Christ is God incarnate:
"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me." (John 14:1)
You may ignore it but here Jesus Christ clearly places Himself on the same level as the God into whom men should believe.
And in the same chapter Christ says that He and His Father as the Divine "WE" will come to make an abode within the lover of Christ:
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
If I have shown you this once, I have shown you this 10 times. Christ the Son of God and His Father come to the lover of Christ as the Divine and eternal "WE" to make an abode with the lover of Christ.
So Christ taught of the experience of the Triune God.
Next?
4. why does Paul not elaborate on the doctrine - - nothingness
I already quoted to you a number of places where Paul speaks of the experience of the Father, Son, and Spirit as ONE God and ONE life. And the believers cannot detect any separation.
I have already shown you where Paul spoke of this enjoyment. You obviously do not have any experience of the indwelling God.
And the Jehovah's Witnesses will see to it that you never do.
28 Sep 11
Originally posted by jaywillThey keep repeating the same old thing. It is like they get amnesia.1. who formed the trinity - emptiness
The Father is called [b]"Eternal Father" (Isa. 9:6) . Who formed the Father ?
The Holy Spirit is called "the eternal Spirit" (Heb.11:14) Who formed the Holy Spirit ?
The Son has not beginning of days nor end of life (Heb. 7:3) .
Who formed to Father, Son, and Holy Sp ...[text shortened]... g God.
And the Jehovah's Witnesses will see to it that you never do.[/b]
I don't know what is wrong with them.
28 Sep 11
Originally posted by RJHindsYou are of course exactly right. The NAME is actually one name - Father - Son - Holy Spirit. Baptized them into the name (not names).
Look at the 14th word in the scripture verse Matthew 28:19.
It says "name" plain as day.
So we might well say, God's name is "Father - Son - Holy Spirit".
28 Sep 11
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsThey need, from God , M - E - R - C - Y.
They keep repeating the same old thing. It is like they get amnesia.
I don't know what is wrong with them.
They need mercy. They need our prayers and they need God's MERCY to take the veil away from the eyes of their heart.
And I need mercy too. I need mercy to REALLY see WHO it is who has come to live in me-
JESUS CHRIST. That is no small thing. So I also need mercy. They need initial mercy. Then like me they need ongoing mercy.