Originally posted by HalitoseCan you give a reference to the Koran? (or anyone else) I've heard some talking heads say that terrorist misunderstand the Koran.
In the case of Islam, dying in Holy War or Ji'had, is the only way you can be assured of reaching paradise.
For the Muslim this is the ultimate act of obedience to Allah and his prophet.
Of course there is the added benifit that you will have 70 virgins waiting for you when you enter paradise.
Can a person get a good English language translation of the Koran on-line?
Originally posted by dale21No, I am not. Although I have it on the best authority that the tale of the virgins is a crock of lies cooked up by evil old mullahs wilfully misinterpretatin the Koran so that the illiterate goatherd boys'll go 'n get 'emselves blown up like so much cannon fodder, sheesh. Sure would like some learned backing on that though.
arent you the expert.
I dont REALLY care where it came from, i just want my 70 virgins
Originally posted by Bosse de Nagei think these bombers are in the minority. if all muslims believed that, then they'd all be doing it wouldnt they?
No, I am not. Although I have it on the best authority that the tale of the virgins is a crock of lies cooked up by evil old mullahs wilfully misinterpretatin the Koran so that the illiterate goatherd boys'll go 'n get 'emselves blown up like so much cannon fodder, sheesh. Sure would like some learned backing on that though.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm
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Originally posted by ColettiI don’t know if there’s a good translation on-line. I have several translations. Ahmed Ali’s is perhaps the easiest read, in a kind of free-verse American English. Maulana Muhammad Ali’s has very extensive commentary and seems to be well-regarded from a scholarly view; but he is a member of a sect called Ahmaddiya, and some of his commentary may not be “mainstream.” Muhammad Asad’s translation seems good, with less commentary than Maulana’s—but is expensive.
Can you give a reference to the Koran? (or anyone else) I've heard some talking heads say that terrorist misunderstand the Koran.
Can a person get a good English language translation of the Koran on-line?
Some commentary is really necessary, I think, because the Qur’an is not written in a straightforward narrative style. Also, Arabic is a Semitic language, like Hebrew, and seems to have the same characteristic of one word having potentially a number of readings. There is no more a single, universal understanding of the Qur’an among Muslims—at least based on what I’ve read—than there is for Christiansand the Bible: Roman Catholic as opposed to Protestant or Greek Orthodox, for example. Unfortunately, the only Muslim I know of on this site tends to avoid this forum because of what he has seen as unnecessary invective, which he felt was personally insulting.
Based on my studies, I don’t think the terrorists misunderstand the Qur’an so much as deliberately misconstrue it to their own ends. That is my opinion. But I am not qualified to debate as an authority on Islam (I know that hasn’t always stopped me before! 😉 ).
Think of it like this: I know a bit more about your Reformed CWV than I did a few weeks ago—and I grew up Lutheran, and that particular Calvinist schema was not there. When I started to do some reading in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, I discovered a whole other CWV, and for a long time it just seemed “alien.” It’s difficult to look into another worldview, and not jump to conclusions—especially when, again, that worldview has different interpretations, just like the CWV. Who are the conservatives, who are the liberals; who are the rationalists, who are the mystics? What is the context for this quote? How do different Muslims read it?
You’re fair-minded, so don’t take this cautioning as targeted to you; I just felt the need to include it for anyone who reads this.
Originally posted by HalitoseCan you give the verses that show this to be true in context?
In the case of Islam, dying in Holy War or Ji'had, is the only way you can be assured of reaching paradise.
For the Muslim this is the ultimate act of obedience to Allah and his prophet.
Of course there is the added benifit that you will have 70 virgins waiting for you when you enter paradise.
Kelly
Originally posted by vistesdWhenever religion and politics mix, this happens. What part of the Koran is (mis) used in this way? So many people have got it into their heads that Islam is a religion for idiots and it is because of notions like the "heaven + 70 virgins" formula.
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Based on my studies, I don’t think the terrorists misunderstand the Qur’an so much as deliberately misconstrue it to their own ends. That is my opinion. But I am not qualified to debate as an authority on Islam (I know that hasn’t always stopped me before! 😉 ).
Originally posted by Bosse de NageSo I'm with Kelly J here. Where's the text? Where does the 70 Virgins stuff come from? But hang on, I'm not knocking any religion here, just asking. Enlighten me please.
Whenever religion and politics mix, this happens. What part of the Koran is (mis) used in this way? So many people have got it into their heads that Islam is a religion for idiots and it is because of notions like the "heaven + 70 virgins" formula.
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Originally posted by wibRe: the Qur’an, Surah 78:31-34.
So I'm with Kelly J here. Where's the text? Where does the 70 Virgins stuff come from? But hang on, I'm not knocking any religion here, just asking. Enlighten me please.
From Muhammad Asad’s translation:
Verily, for the God-conscious there is supreme fulfillment in store: luxuriant gardens and vineyards, and splendid companions well-matched, and a cup overflowing.
From Maulana Muhammad Ali’s translation:
Surely for those who keep their duty is achievement, gardens and vineyards, and youthful (companions), equals in age, and a pure cup.
Asad’s commentary says that kawa’ib means prominent, and although there was in the culture an idiomatic reference to breasts (kind of like: “Hey, look at those gigunda….!&rdquo😉, that is not in the word itself; Asad’s opinion is that, since both men and women are eligible for paradise, this would make little sense in the text—except, of course, for the men who want to read it in there. It is Asad’s opinion that such verses as these need to be taken allegorically; and somewhere else, the Qur’an specifically allows for such allegorical reading.
Ali affirms that the word is adjectival, and notes that there is no referent in the text (which is why he puts “companions” in parenthesis); however, Ali focuses on the word’s meaning as “youthful” rather than “prominent.”
Both Ahmed Ali and Yusuf Ali, in their translations, render the word as “maidens,” though I have no commentaries for these translations.
So: 1) No virgins so far in four prominent translations; but maidens in two. 2) No mention of jihad, or suicide bombers in these verses or anywhere in the local context. Asad says the fulfillment is for “the God-conscious;” Maulana Ali says, “for those who keep their duty;” Ahmed Ali says, “for those who preserve themselves from evil and follow the straight path;” and Yusuf Ali says, “for the Righteous.”
As for hadith—the hadith are huge collections of purported sayings of the Prophet. I say purported because—and I think this is the case for all the collections—the deciding factor for keeping any hadith in the collection was an inability to prove that it couldn’t have been said by Muhammad, based on a chain, or isnad, of people by whom the stories were passed down. This would mean that no hadith is necessarily accurate, only that the compilers couldn’t prove it otherwise. This is the sum total of my understanding of hadith—except that there is some question as to whether a hadith can ever be used to “contradict” the Qur’an. As a general principle, I believe that the hadith stand “under” the Qur’an.
It would take me some reading to find all the verses that state who does, and who does not, get into heaven, but here is an example from Surah 5:69, which I think gives the general tenor: “All those who believe, and the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, in fact anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and performs good deeds, will have nothing to fear or regret.” (trans. Ahmed Ali; Last Day means the Day of Judgment, or the Day of Reckoning.)
And, just another general verse on fighting: “And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors.” (trans. Maulana Muhammad Ali; According to a footnote by Ali, “It should be noted that it is this defensive fighting which is called fighting in the Way of Allah. Fighting for the propagation of the faith is not once mentioned in the whole of the Qur’an.&rdquo😉
That’s pretty much all I can offer, without doing a whole lot more reading through the Qur’an, or Islam in general, than I want to do right now.