Suicide bombing & faith

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
So, there is no explicit support for suicide bombing or other fanatical aggression contained in the Koran. (The mullahs who preach this hatred are filthy liars, and their followers are dupes, rather than Islamic Galahads).

I do not know enough about that book to call anyone a liar on what
is, or is not in it.
Kelly

The statement on the virgins was a sarcastic one from the explanation of the 911 bombers. Ji'had however was not, explained below.

What few Westerners understand is that Muslim leaders who call for the overthrow of all governments and the establishment of an Islamic superstate controlling all aspects of life, for every person on earth, are not necessarily extremists on the fringe of Islam. Jihad, the subjugation and forcible conversion of all people to Islam and world domination are, in fact, central tenants of Islam. Jihad is the sixth pillar of Islam.

Jihad was so important to Muhammad that he declared it to be the second most important deed in Islam. "Allah’s apostle was asked, ‘What is the best deed?’ He replied, ‘To believe in Allah and his apostle.’ The questioner then asked, ‘What is the next (in goodness)?’ He replied, ‘To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah’s cause.’ " – The Hadith, Al Bukhari, Vol. 1 no 25.

Now, of course, most Muslims are neither terrorists nor terrorist sympathisers. While many Muslims publicly rejoiced over the news of the horrific terrorist attacks on New York and Washington D.C., most did not. We need to be careful not to blame all Muslims for what certain individuals do in the name of Islam. Of course, those peace-loving, law-abiding Muslims are not being consistent with the Jihad teachings of the Qur’an. They are probably more influenced by the Christian ideal of loving your neighbour than the Islamic doctrine of Jihad.

The Quran teaches that Muslims are superior to all others: "Ye (Muslims) are the best of peoples evolved for mankind …" Surah 3:110. Muslims are forbidden to befriend Jews or Christians. "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is one of them …" Surah 5:54

Islam instructs its adherents to fight until all their opponents submit. Christians and Jews may be spared if they pay "Jizya" – a penalty tax – with willing submission. "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day … Nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay Jizya (tribute taxes) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Surah 9:29

"Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait (ambush) for them in every strategem (of war)." Surah 9:5 (also 2:193)

"Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them); thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens, thus (are ye commanded)". Surah 47:4

For those who resist Islam – execution or mutilation is decreed: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off the hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land …" Surah 5:36

Now, all of these texts appear to be contradicted by Surah 2:256, which states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion." But there seems a clear break between the early Muhammad, and the later Muhammad. The early Muhammad was married to only one wife, Khadeja, courageously spoke out against idolatry and polytheism in Mecca and encouraged friendship with the Christians. The later Muhammad, after the death of his first wife and flight to Medina, accumulated at least 14 more wives, including 9 year old Aisha, started raiding caravans, massacred 600 Jews for failing to acknowledge him as the prophet, and propagated the doctrine of Jihad. In a sense, there are two Muhammad’s and two Qurans. The early pre-Medina Surahs demonstrate tolerance and respect for Christians, whereas the later Surahs unleashed Jihad.

In the Mishkat the rewards for participation in Jihad are spelled out: "the Messenger of Allah said: To, whichever village you go … its one fifth is for Allah and his Messenger and the remainder is for you." (Mishkat II, page 412).

" … the soldiers of Islam fought tooth and nail. They would get Paradise in case of death in a holy war, and booties in case of conquest, Jihad is therefore the best source of all acquisitions." (Mishkat II, page 440).

"Jihad is one of the chief meritorious acts in the eye of Islam and it is the best source of earnings." (Mishkat II, page 340).

"This is the best method of earning both spiritual and temporal. If victory is won, there is enormous booty and conquest of a country, which cannot be equalled to any other source of earning. If there is defeat or death, there is everlasting Paradise and a great spiritual benefit. This sort of Jihad is conditional upon pure motive, i.e. for establishing the kingdom of Allah on earth." (Mishkat II, page 253).

The Hadith, which is a record of the words and deeds of Muhammad, is also viewed by Muslims as inspired. Next to the Quran, it is the most important source of Islamic Law. It’s teachings are regarded as binding on all Muslims.

In the Hadith, Muhammad is quoted as decreeing that Muslims may not be punished for killing a non-Muslim: "No Muslims should be killed for killing a kafir (infidel)." (vol. 9:50)

Those who die in holy war are guaranteed to go to Heaven. "The person who participates in Jihad (Holy battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and his apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to paradise (if he is killed)." (vol. 1:35)

Many assume that the concept of Jihad, or holy war, is an aberration not truly representative of Islam. Some leaders have stated that "Islam teaches a God of love just like Christianity and Judaism" and "no religion condones violence or terrorism." Unfortunately that is not true. Islam is no ordinary religion.

Islam divides the world into two sectors: Dar-al-Islam (the House of Islam) and Dar-al-Harb (The House of War). The only countries considered to be at peace are those where Islamic law (the Sharia) is enforced. All other countries, as part of Dar-al-Harb, are considered legitimate targets.

It is significant that the calendar of Islam does not begin with the birth of Muhammad, nor the onset of his "revelations", nor the assembling of the first Muslim community, nor the flight of Muslim refugees to Abyssinia. The 12 years of persecution in Mecca were not considered the start of their new religion. The Muslim calendar only begins when Islam became a political state, under Sharia Law, in Medina.

Islam in Arabic means submission, surrender or subjugation. A Muslim is one who submits. The Arabic word for peace is Salam. Islam is the active form of Salam. Muslims see themselves as a "peace-making force" using argument, intrigue, commerce, threats, terrorism, warfare and every other means possible to secure Islam as the only religion worldwide.

"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere." Surah 8:39

In the light of these teachings, it should be no surprise to learn that since 1948, the 21 Arab countries have suffered 30 wars, 63 successful revolutions, at least 75 unsuccessful revolutions, and 36 heads of state were murdered. In the Arab world, revolutions and assassinations have been the most prevalent means of political expression and attaining power. One out of every three barrels of oil sold by the Mideast has gone to pay for weapons.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do not know enough about that book to call anyone a liar on what
is, or is not in it.
Kelly

Vistesd (damn I your nickname's hard to remember, I have to look it up) sent in a post which concurs with what I'm told by the Muslims I know here in Cape Town: that the 70 virgins per martyr story is a cynical spin concocted by hate-crazed maniacs with as much textual authority as the Pope's promise to the Crusaders that killing in the name of God is not the same as ordinary killing: in other words, zero.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
...Crusaders that killing in the name of God is not the same as ordinary killing: in other words, zero.

The word “crusade” does not appear in the Bible, nor is it commanded. However, Jihad is the sixth pillar of Islam and the second greatest command of Muhammad. It is not only commended, but commanded in the Quran.

The crusades ended many centuries ago. However Islamic Jihad is carried out to this day. Millions of Christians have been slaughtered throughout the centuries by Islamic militants – such as the 1.5 millions Armenians murdered in Turkey in 1915. Christians have continued to be slaughtered by Islamic militants in Indonesia, the Philippines, Sudan and Nigeria to the present day.

Originally posted by Halitose
The word “crusade” does not appear in the Bible, nor is it commanded. However, Jihad is the sixth pillar of Islam and the second greatest command of Muhammad. It is not only commended, but commanded in the Quran.

The crusades ended many centuries ago. However Islamic Jihad is carried out to this day. Millions of Christians have been slaughtered througho ...[text shortened]... red by Islamic militants in Indonesia, the Philippines, Sudan and Nigeria to the present day.

Cut! Paste!

"The term Sixth pillar of Islam refers to an addition to the Five Pillars of Islam; the five pillars of Islam explain the basic tenets of the Sunni Islam faith. Most Muslims believe there are precisely five Pillars of Islam, and consider the concept of a sixth pillar to be heretical. The idea of there being more than five pillars is not a mainstream idea; Sunni leaders have taught that there are only five major pillars of the faith. However, the concept of Pillars of Islam does not exist in Shia Islam.

A few Muslims, mainly some Kharijite groups in ancient times and the founder of Islamic Jihad recently, have taught that Jihad, or personal struggle, should be considered the sixth pillar of Islam. In this context, Jihad is viewed as external war against those perceived to be enemies of Islam. Among certain Ismaili groups, the term "sixth pillar of Islam" can also refer to "Allegiance to the Imam" or "Hajj", depending on the group." (reference: Wikipedia)


Read on, McDuff.

Originally posted by Halitose
The word “crusade” does not appear in the Bible, nor is it commanded. However, Jihad is the sixth pillar of Islam and the second greatest command of Muhammad. It is not only commended, but commanded in the Quran.

The crusades ended man ...[text shortened]... donesia, the Philippines, Sudan and Nigeria to the present day.

So, what do you want the US to go out and incinerate 1.4 billion people, because they don't particularly like christians and jews..
Maybe you ought to examine the US policies that pretend that the pluralistic Baath are the bad guy and ask your self just who were being surpressed by Saddam and why.
Th simple fact of the matter is Christians were far better off in pre-invasion than they were in Saudia Arabia.
the Baath and the PLO both have Christian membership, how many Christians or Moslems are in the Likud?

I think this thread is getting more into "debate" material basically because I have my own view that any religious tenet concerning government is just Politics dressed in a religious clown costume.

Originally posted by frogstomp
So, what do you want the US to go out and incinerate 1.4 billion
I think this thread is getting more into "debate" material basically because I have my own view that any religious tenet concerning government is just Politics dressed in a religious clown costume.

For some, politics is a form of spirituality. An important part of the motivation for these deluded people to blow themselves to pieces would seem to stem from their faith--a bogus "sixth pillar of Islam" faith considered heretical by orthodox Islam, to be sure. In that sense, suicide bombing is a form of spirituality--the ultimate form, perhaps, much like the Christian martyrs' participation in those happenings with lions staged by the Roman emperors, or those admirable Filipinos who restage the crucifixion with such zeal.

In a world where the personal is political, can spirituality and politics be mutually extricated?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
That being said, Palynka, with your preference for logic above contradiction, would you agree that a suicide bomber is an exemplary embodiment of religious faith?

I agree that it is an extreme case, but perhaps I would not call it exemplary.

Faith can be a powerful persuasion tool and that can be used for all types of uses. It doesn't matter that most religions have a positive message in its essence, there will always be people trying to take advantage of the power of "faith".

Premise: A system that relies on the goodwill of its leaders will generally be led by the least scrupulous ones.

This means that there will always be the tendency for some spiritual leaders to try to take advantage of their followers for their personal (politics included) reasons. I think that religions must be self-critical in their essence to prevent this sort of abuse. To provoke thought in their followers instead of merely feeding them dogmas.

This takes me back to my argument with vistesd. I believe that this process will mean that religion would be not much more than an excuse for society's moral self-criticism (which has its uses). Doesn't the divine lose importance then? What exactly is the divine if it is shaped by men? If God exists and wants us to think for ourselves, what's the point of institutionalized religion?

Originally posted by Halitose
In the case of Islam, dying in Holy War or Ji'had, is the only way you can be assured of reaching paradise.

For the Muslim this is the ultimate act of obedience to Allah and his prophet.

Of course there is the added benifit that you will have 70 virgins waiting for you when you enter paradise.

Who wants to hear the one about Osama arriving in heaven?

Originally posted by chinking58
Who wants to hear the one about Osama arriving in heaven?

Go on then.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Go on then.

It seem that Osama went to heaven, and right away, George Washington walks up and kicks him in the shins! Then Henry Clay punches him in the nose! After Robert E Lee and Patrick Henry each gave him a good kick, Osama called old Peter over to ask what's going on! 'This is not what I was promised!'

'Sure it is', says Peter, 'and there are 66 more Virginians waiting to greet you!'

This is my last post on this subject, since I am neither qualified (as I noted above) nor interested in playing the role of "defender of Islam."

1) KellyJay rightfully talked about context. I am not going to waste my time going around trying to find context for cut & paste verses. I think one of the reasons KJ finds context important (besides the fact that it just is important) is that you can lift stuff out of the Bible the same way.

2) Context in the Qur’an seems to be a much more difficult affair, given its writing style. It takes a lot of study just to attain the status of “beginning student” for such works. Anyone who simply sits down and reads through a volume of Talmud, for example, in a day, and says they understood it is—a genius. Some books don’t just read like others.

3) My interest has been in understanding different religions, not to pit one against another and I’m not interested in playing that game.

4) If you honestly want to know what Muslims believe—or Hindus believe, or anyone else believes—read and talk to them. Read a lot, because there’s a broad spectrum, and you can’t learn all about another religion in a day—or even by surfing the net for a month. If your goal starting out is to “prove” that you’re religion is the best one, you will certainly be able to do so.

If you’re religion is better, let it speak for itself; and let the other religions and philosophies speak for themselves. Even if you “prove” that the other religion is “really really bad,” that says nothing for yours—but the way in which you go about your “proof” may.

5) Ask yourself this question: “Would I let a member of another religion tell me what I have to believe as part of my religion?” If you’re a Christian, have you ever been frustrated by a non-Christian telling you what you believe as a Christian (instead of asking you), and insisting on it, even if you’re trying to say, “No that’s not really what I believe”? If you’re a Jew or a Muslim, have you ever been frustrated the same way? If so, you might remember Hillel’s version of the Golden Rule: “What you don’t want done unto you, don’t do to others.”

Now, there is at least one cited verse from the Koran in Halitose’s article, that I cannot find at all--that is, I can find the verse number, but not the words. Maybe it’s a mis-cited verse, maybe it’s a conflation of verses, maybe I'm just not trying hard enough, I don’t know. And I’m going to let anyone who’s really interested, to go see if they can find it for themselves….

Palynka: I think that religions must be self-critical in their essence to prevent this sort of abuse. To provoke thought in their followers instead of merely feeding them dogmas.

Well said.