After some discussion with Sonship, the issue of torment is becoming clearer. Here is what I think the bible says about who are the prime candidates for torment:
1. Spiritual Beings - Devil or Satan, False Prophet and the Beast, described in Revelation. These face eternal torment simply because they are eternal beings and cannot die.
2. Evil Christians who have been given everything and then turned away from the holy commandment given to them, and reverted to a life of sin and evil. These according to Paul and Peter will face a sentence worse than death. That can only be torment of some kind. The rich man in Jesus's story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, is one such candidate.
3. Other Evil people - this group are nonChristians whose deeds are so evil and depraved that God cannot in all good conscience allow them to escape with just death alone. Leaders and others who have committed mass killings, now called ethnic cleansing, wiping out in horrific style millions of innocent people without provocation. Individuals who spend a lifetime of evil and sin.. God alone knows who these are.
All others who are unworthy of eternal life would simply not be raised from the dead or if alive will be destroyed.
From discussions with Sonship in other threads the following became clear:
1. That none of the Apostles explained to the Gentiles that if they did not accept Christ or believe in Christ, that the consequences would be eternal torment. Therefore that doctrine of eternal torment for non believers is nonsense
2. In the writings of the Apostles, it seems that the only ones facing torment of some kind are Christian Saints who turn away from the commandments of Christ.
3. In the writings of the Prophets, Isaiah was quoted as having spoken of torment but again it seems that it applies to Christians who turn away from Christ:
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24 KJV)
Who has transgressed against Christ? Certainly not all the worlds nonChritians
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [l]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Originally quoted by Eladar For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
This interpretation that 'the world/nature is proof of a creator with divine nature' can and does work as a basis for most god figures/religions and, for proponents of those other faiths, Christians insisting that they have an exclusive claim to it all is not an 'argument' or 'evidence'; it's just an assertion.
Originally posted by FMF This interpretation that 'the world/nature is proof of a creator with divine nature' can and does work as a basis for most god figures/religions and, for proponents of those other faiths, Christians insisting that they have an exclusive claim to it all is not an 'argument' or 'evidence'; it's just an assertion.
Originally posted by FMF This interpretation that 'the world/nature is proof of a creator with divine nature' can and does work as a basis for most god figures/religions and, for proponents of those other faiths, Christians insisting that they have an exclusive claim to it all is not an 'argument' or 'evidence'; it's just an assertion.
I think that is exactly what Paul is saying there. All people throughout history have some kind of spiritual basis for which to live righteously... Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (Romans 1:19 KJV).
Consider these related passages:
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (John 1:9 KJV) Every man knows good from evil because the light of Christ is in every man.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:14-16 KJV)
Again good and evil is written in the hearts of men.
Originally posted by Eladar No one has an excuse. From Romans
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [l]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal po ...[text shortened]... been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Never said anyone has an excuse. All unrighteousness will be dealt with by God.
Originally posted by Rajk999 After some discussion with Sonship, the issue of torment is becoming clearer. Here is what I think the bible says about who are the prime candidates for torment:
1. Spiritual Beings - Devil or Satan, False Prophet and the Beast, described in Revelation. These face eternal torment simply because they are eternal beings and cannot die.
2. Evil Christian ...[text shortened]... unworthy of eternal life would simply not be raised from the dead or if alive will be destroyed.
So, the idea that Christians have some exclusive claim to the notion that 'the world/nature is proof of a creator with divine nature' and the other elaborate claims Christians make about themselves rooted in it does not amount to much.
Originally posted by Rajk999 No, I never had evil Christian Saints in there facing torment, but it seems that Paul and Peter are saying it... a fate worse than death etc.
You, like all libtards, gave conservative Christians going to hell and no others.
Very common theory believed quite commonly by those headed to hell.
Thanks to Sonship for Opening My Eyes
16 Jul '17 23:47
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