1. Standard memberCalJust
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    27 Aug '11 09:00
    Jesus gave all non-Christians (for lack of a better word) the right to judge his followers by a defined standard: "By THIS shall all men know that you are my disciples: if you have love for one another!"

    This is further underlined by one of his parting words to his disciples: "A NEW commandment give I unto you, that you love one another".

    Granted, the RHP forum is a very limited playing field for this love (or lack thereof) to be demonstrated. Nevertheless, it would be good to take a brief look at whether your own pronouncement and action towards other Christ-followers on this board gives proof positive, to those reading and watching, of your discipleship.

    Just a thought.
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
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    27 Aug '11 09:451 edit
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Jesus gave all non-Christians (for lack of a better word) the right to judge his followers by a defined standard: "By THIS shall all men know that you are my disciples: if you have love for one another!"

    This is further underlined by one of his parting words to his disciples: "A NEW commandment give I unto you, that you love one another".

    Granted, the ...[text shortened]... ives proof positive, to those reading and watching, of your discipleship.

    Just a thought.
    Why wouldn't Christians show love for one another? There should be no
    disageement among Christians, if they are truly Christians.
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    27 Aug '11 10:20
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Why wouldn't Christians show love for one another? There should be no
    disageement among Christians, if they are truly Christians.
    Love and disagreement are not mutually exclusive. Lot's of Christians disagree with each other.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    27 Aug '11 10:34
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Love and disagreement are not mutually exclusive. Lot's of Christians disagree with each other.
    What for examole do they disagree about?
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    27 Aug '11 10:441 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    What for examole do they disagree about?
    I admire your zeal, but do you really think people who are Christians will never disagree?

    Have you never read for example about Paul and Peter disagreeing:

    http://niv.scripturetext.com/galatians/2.htm

    edit: from vs 11.
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
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    27 Aug '11 13:14
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I admire your zeal, but do you really think people who are Christians will never disagree?

    Have you never read for example about Paul and Peter disagreeing:

    http://niv.scripturetext.com/galatians/2.htm

    edit: from vs 11.
    But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? (Galatians 2:11-14)

    Yes, I see Paul did confront Peter about his cowardness when in the company
    of certain Jews. So you are right that Paul did disagree with Peter's actions.
    Does this mean to you that Paul did not show love toward Peter?
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    27 Aug '11 14:031 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas ...[text shortened]... disagree with Peter's actions.
    Does this mean to you that Paul did not show love toward Peter?
    Dont you mean like the Second world war, when millions of Catholics and Protestants
    from America and her allied forces killed millions of other Catholics and Protestants
    from Germany and other parts of Europe. Does that mean that all those millions of
    Christians were showing love? How about the loving act of bombing Dresden and
    killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, Christian civilians at that, how loving was
    that? and here you are talking of a single instance of a minor disagreement some two
    thousand years ago? No doubt you will try to justify it, as if killing is in some way
    loving. The fact of the matter is that Churches are full of memorials to those who
    violently killed other Christians, making a complete mockery of Christ's words, which
    the opening poster failed to mention in full, 'I am giving you a new commandment that you
    love one another. . . .just as I have loved you'.
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    27 Aug '11 14:15
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Dont you mean like the Second world war, when millions of Catholics and Protestants
    from America and her allied forces killed millions of other Catholics and Protestants
    from Germany and other parts of Europe. Does that mean that all those millions of
    Christians were showing love? How about the loving act of bombing Dresden and
    killing hund ...[text shortened]... am giving you a new commandment that you
    love one another. . . .just as I have loved you'.
    That doesn't sound very loving to me. Do you think all this killing had
    anything to do with them being Christians? Jesus said others would
    know the Christians for their love toward each other. Do you see this
    being applied in your examples? Explain please.
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    27 Aug '11 14:17
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    So you are right that Paul did disagree with Peter's actions.
    Does this mean to you that Paul did not show love toward Peter?
    Of course he did; as I said love and disagreement are not mutually exclusive from each other.
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    27 Aug '11 14:24
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    That doesn't sound very loving to me. Do you think all this killing had
    anything to do with them being Christians? Jesus said others would
    know the Christians for their love toward each other. Do you see this
    being applied in your examples? Explain please.
    That doesn't sound very loving to me - RJH

    and yet it happened.
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    27 Aug '11 14:24
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Of course he did; as I said love and disagreement are not mutually exclusive from each other.
    How then are we to judge that they are showing love even when they
    disagree with one another?
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    27 Aug '11 14:57
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Why wouldn't Christians show love for one another? There should be no
    disageement among Christians, if they are truly Christians.
    Are you serious?

    Not sure if serious.



    I'm sorry, but when I regularly hear Christians saying some really, really, really stupid stuff, how can I not disagree with stupid?
  13. Standard memberCalJust
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    27 Aug '11 15:051 edit
    Some interesting contributions so far...

    Let me explain my thinking in posing this question, and then see if we can maybe focus the discussion a bit.

    I'm not really that concerned about the macro issues - such as wars and the Catholic/Protestant conflict, not only in Ireland/UK but also Germany during the reformation. These were (IMHO) inter-group actions which have very little to do with real disciples, but nominal, politically minded personalities (another debate! Leave it there!)

    No, I am much more concerned about love at the basic, inter-personal level. I postulate that love is the basic criterion that will distinguish true disciples from counterfeits. Remember, Jesus said that there will be many in that day that will say "Lord, Lord!" but he will say: Depart, I never knew you! This means that the reality of counterfeits is ever present. Also, at the separation of the sheep and the goats, the single distinguishing factor is what we did, and did not do, to each other!

    Remember also that the overarching single caracteristic of God, is that She is LOVE!

    A little bit more to the point - if love is truly the distinguishing characteristic of disciples, then petty arguments about interpretations of doctrine, etc, take a distant second (or fifth or sixth..) place.

    It is clear that arguments between fellow-followers started as early as in Paul's day - hence his admonishments to the Corinthians. Significantly, John's letters (which are generally recognised as post-dating Paul's) major on love, and leave doctrinal issues behind.

    So, in today's milieu of thousand of divisions in the church and beyond, I would rather err on being inclusive, showing love (without necessarily agreement on all points, as somebody has already said)rather than rejection and exclusivity, whilst focussing on doctrinal purity.

    A famous saying that I have made my own: "They made a circle to shut me out - I made a bigger one and shut them in".

    Yes, even rc and other sincere JWs, as well as Dasa, with all his crazy ideas and porcupine posts!
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    27 Aug '11 20:09
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Are you serious?

    Not sure if serious.



    I'm sorry, but when I regularly hear Christians saying some really, really, really stupid stuff, how can I not disagree with stupid?
    Now is that a Christian attitude? Shame, shame.
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    27 Aug '11 20:13
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Some interesting contributions so far...

    Let me explain my thinking in posing this question, and then see if we can maybe focus the discussion a bit.

    I'm not really that concerned about the macro issues - such as wars and the Catholic/Protestant conflict, not only in Ireland/UK but also Germany during the reformation. These were (IMHO) inter-gro ...[text shortened]... c and other sincere JWs, as well as Dasa, with all his crazy ideas and porcupine posts!
    Apparently you believe in tolerance.
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