This thread starts by me with the assumption that Jesus Christ absolutely identified Himself as the same God as the "I AM" Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3.
And I assume that without dispute the Jews sought to stone Jesus in John 8 because they understood that He was making Himself God.
As far as I am concerned that is the starting point of this discussion. This thread explores what Christ as the "I AM" can mean practically to our lives.
Jesus Christ as the great "I AM" means also that He is everything we need. That is everything divine, healthy, of the best humanity, of the cleanest, the most righteous, the most upright, and all that is good and positive that we need --- He is everything we need.
Since I tend to be verbose and tire readers. I will stop here in this post.
Christ as the great "I AM" is what we are not and is everything for us if we allow Him to enter into us.
"I AM" means that Jesus can be everything we need, for us.
Originally posted by jaywillJesus is not even quoting from Exodus. Exodus in the original language does not say, I
This thread starts by me with the assumption that Jesus Christ absolutely identified Himself as the same God as the [b]"I AM" Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush in Exodus 3.
And I assume that without dispute the Jews sought to stone Jesus in John 8 because they understood that He was making Himself God.
As far as I am concerned that is th nter into us.
"I AM" means that Jesus can be everything we need, for us.[/b]
am, nor does the Greek of the Septuagint. Typical trinitarian snake reasoning based
on an erroneous translation, your falsehood knows no bounds, but we knew that already.
A most wonderful title for God and Christ --- "I AM". God told Moses "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14-15) In the unfolding progressive revelation of God in the Bible, this "I AM" eventually is incarnated to be man's Savior, Lord, and indwelling Holy Spirit ... the very divine nature that Christians can become partakers of.
" ... you might become partakers of the divine nature ..." (2 Peter 1:4)
Jesus Christ is the divine nature which the believers in Jesus can subjectively partake. This "I AM" of Jesus is not merely for our appreciation outwardly. He is the "I AM" for man's participation subjectively.
The Apostle Peter says the Christians are "partakers of the divine nature":
This is more than worshippers of that nature objectively.
This is more than spectators of that nature objectively.
This is more than observers of that nature objectively.
This is to receive the divine nature as participants and partakers. The "I AM" of God is the inward salvation by which we can escape the curruption of the fallen world:
"Seeing His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness, through the full knowledge of Him who has called us by His own glory and virtue,
Through which He has granted to us precious and exeedingly great promises that through these ... YOU MIGHT BECOME PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust." (2 Peter 1:3,4 my emphasis)
By partaking of Christ as the "I AM" we can employ Him as everything we need. We can participate in "the divine nature" to escape the lust and to further participate in that nature.
It is a cycle. We partake of Jesus Christ and subjectively enjoy the divine nature. That enjoyment causes us to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. And that escaping then causes us to partake more of Christ as the divine nature. In a cycle it goes.
The key to escape is to take Jesus Christ as everything we need, as everything we do not have in ourselves. Only He is. We are not. Only He is qualified to say "I AM".
Paul learned this and said that it was not longer he that lived but Christ that lived in him. Paul pioneered for to learn to take Jesus as the great "I AM" everything that man needs.
"Seeing His divine power has granted to us all things which relate to life and godliness ..." (1 Pet. 1:3a)
Originally posted by rwingettlistening to ice melt in the north pole would have been more interesting than reading the
And here I thought this thread was about the 2011 Tom Shadyac film. That would have been more interesting.
regurgitated falsehoods of wilfully ignorant plastic Christians.
Originally posted by rwingett
And here I thought this thread was about the 2011 Tom Shadyac film. That would have been more interesting.
And here I thought this thread was about the 2011 Tom Shadyac film. That would have been more interesting.
rwingett, I like a good movie just as much as the next guy. But this is more interesting.
Intertainment has its place. But our lives are made miserable because of the corruption that is in the world through lust. And Jesus Christ became everything that we need.
Do you need patience? Jesus Christ is the patience you need.
Do you need longsuffering? Christ is the endurannce and longsuffering you need.
If you need wisdom Christ can become our wisdom.
If we need understanding Christ can become our understanding.
When we hit our limitation we can see God's starting point. He has gone through a process by which He can enter into us and live in an organic union with us. God as the great "I AM" can be everything we require - everything we need.
For Jesus to say "before Abraham came into existence, I AM" not only shows that God became a man. It implies that entering into us He can become us. He can infuse us with everything we need.
What ?? What ?? Did not God place man, in the beginning, before the "tree of life" ? That was God in His eternal plan, placing man before Himself that God could become everything we need as eternal and divine life.
Only the divine "I AM" is self existing and ever existing. He is and we are not. He is everything we need.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Jesus is not even quoting from Exodus. Exodus in the original language does not say, I
am, nor does the Greek of the Septuagint. Typical trinitarian snake reasoning based
on an erroneous translation, your falsehood knows no bounds, but we knew that already.
Jesus is not even quoting from Exodus. Exodus in the original language does not say, I am, nor does the Greek of the Septuagint. Typical trinitarian snake reasoning based on an erroneous translation, your falsehood knows no bounds, but we knew that already.
The "snake" is in the Devil's desire to keep man from sunjectively partaking of God as inward and divine life.
The "snake" is the Satanic plot to keep man "religious" rather than letting man partake of God as his inward life.
There is the subtle serpent's activity. That is to keep man religiously admiring only an objective God far away. God is of course in Heaven, "up there" in some sense. But the incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and impartation of the Holy Spirit brings this God INTO man who receives Him.
This mingling of God and man will destroy Satan. And this is what he fights to the uttermost. This is why the Jehovah's Witnesses was invented by Satan - to keep God on the OUTSIDE, up there, the great objective Jehovah. And this is why the fight against the incarnation of God as the man Jesus.
Jesus is about God redeeming man and entering into man as the "life giving Spirit" that men might become "partakers of the divine nature".
If the snake cannot keep you an atheist he will allow you to believe in only an objective God. Of course the objective God is truth. But God is moving on. He is moving on to impart Himself into man to be man's life giver ...
"the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)[/b]
The snake has deceived the Arians, the Russellites, the Jehovah's Witness, and much of degraded Christianity to neglect the "life giving Spirit" for the impartion of God INTO the vessel of man's being.
Some evangelicals surely realize that we must receive Christ. But it is often largly only for a kind of "ticket" to go to a happy place.
Jehovah's Witnesses are worst. They also want to go to a happy place called Jehovah's kingdom and know NOTHING of Christ imparted into us to be our life. They are not much different from Moslems. Jehovah's Witness is simply a kind of refined "Christian" Islam.
God's eternal purpose is to come INTO man's vessel to be man's divine life and nature for the mingling of God and man.
Originally posted by jaywillFinally, you seem fully with me in understanding the Watchtower SocietyJesus is not even quoting from Exodus. Exodus in the original language does not say, I am, nor does the Greek of the Septuagint. Typical trinitarian snake reasoning based on an erroneous translation, your falsehood knows no bounds, but we knew that already.
The "snake" is in the Devil's desire to keep man from sunjectively partaking of ...[text shortened]... be man's divine life and nature for the mingling of God and man.
as an anti-Christ organization established by Satan, the false god of this
world, to fight against the Kingdom of God and His Christ. And these
poor JWs are deceived by the master deceiver and Liar into spreading
his deception and lies to others. It is too bad that they are not the only
ones Satan has deceived. These poor atheists don't even realize they too
are in a group deceived by Satan to fight against God and His Christ.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieyes it does, that point was proven in another thread, to say differently would be a lie, and thusly calling you a liar would not be slander but rather an accurate rendering of your character
Jesus is not even quoting from Exodus. Exodus in the original language does not say, I
am, nor does the Greek of the Septuagint. Typical trinitarian snake reasoning based
on an erroneous translation, your falsehood knows no bounds, but we knew that already.
Originally posted by Dowardno it doesn't and no it wasn't. Please tell me what the original Hebrew states, you can
yes it does, that point was proven in another thread, to say differently would be a lie, and thusly calling you a liar would not be slander but rather an accurate rendering of your character
go to any interlinear and find out, please tell me what the original Greek states, as
found in the Septuagint, i dont know how you will find it, i have a copy in my library.
I still have some more on the positive side to say about "I AM".
The Lord's name "I AM" is simply the verb "to be". In a very real sense we created ones are not qualified to say that we are. If you can grasp it, we are nothing; only God has absolute self existing BEING.
Only God is qualified to say "I AM" in the sense that God is ultimate BEING - ever existing, self existing, dependent upon nothing and contingent on nothing. God alone is the ultimate living "to be".
All other lives are dependent upon God. Only God is self existing with no beginning and no end. This is the One whom the man Jesus said He was.
"The Jews then said to HIm, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham ? Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am." (John 8:57,58 RcV)
When God first told Moses that He was the "I AM that I AM" He was speaking from a burning thornbush. And Moses remembered God in Deutoronomy as the One who dwelt in a bush:
" May his [Joseph's] land be blessed of Jehovah ... with the choicest things of the earth, and the fullness thereof,
And the favor of Him who dwelt in the thornbush. May they come upon the head of Joseph." (Deuteronomy 33:13b, 16)
In his departing speeck Moses recalled God as the one who dwelt in the thornbush. That was the thornbush from which God spoke to Moses in Exodus 3, saying "I AM THAT I AM"
The eternal and ever existing God appeared to Moses as if living in a thornbush. And in the incarnation God spoke to the world again from a MAN, a MAN who appeared to be a fallen man, a son of Adam, yet without sin.
Thorns were a sign of the curse that came upon the earth at Adam's disobedience. God appearing to Moses as a burning flame in a thornbush is a pre-symbol of the incarnation of God as a man.
The I AM is the God who lived in a thornbush in Exodus to signal that in His eternal purpose the I AM would be incarnate to be the Godman Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus, the Son of God who "came in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin" (Romans 8:3) is the antitype of the thornbush that burned but was not consumed. The ever existing God of ultimate Being became a man like us, coming in the likeness of a fallen son of Adam.
He came to be the Head of a new race of humanity - a divine humanity. He came to redeem us with His redemptive death and enliven us with His resurrection and life impartation.
The I AM came to be among us and then to be within us as a "life giving Spirit" to be everything we need.
"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ..." (John 1:14)
In Him was the life that we need - "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:4)
The uncreated Divine Person as Life was in Him. And in resurrection He became a life giving Spirit - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) .
That mean He came to GIVE God as life to man. He came to GIVE God the great "I AM THAT I AM" into man to be everything that they need for this new humanity.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"i dont know how you will find it, i have a copy in my library."
no it doesn't and no it wasn't. Please tell me what the original Hebrew states, you can
go to any interlinear and find out, please tell me what the original Greek states, as
found in the Septuagint, i dont know how you will find it, i have a copy in my library.
I guess he knows where to find it now. You probably have the only existing copy. One the Watchtower authorised you to have.
Please tell us what it says. Who published it? Which extant manuscripts are used? etc.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo, Christians not agreeing with your dogma is a perfectly good basis for calling their beliefs "falsehoods" and bad-mouthing them as "willfully ignorant" and "plastic".
listening to ice melt in the north pole would have been more interesting than reading the
regurgitated falsehoods of wilfully ignorant plastic Christians.
You're sounding more like Dasa all the time, man.
This is the kind of thing that explains why people are apt to write off the JWs as a cult, you know.
Originally posted by SuzianneAs I'm sure you are aware, all cults claim to have ultimate or truth and are not wrong in any way - it is one of the characteristics of cult-like thinking. It is why people in cults NEVER conceded a point or if they do it's an irrelevance and never point of doctrine, or something related to doctrine. Cult membership is like being in an eggshell - great strength as long as there are no "cracks" - attempts to crack the shell must be beaten back at all costs.
So, Christians not agreeing with your dogma is a perfectly good basis for calling their beliefs "falsehoods" and bad-mouthing them as "willfully ignorant" and "plastic".
You're sounding more like Dasa all the time, man.
This is the kind of thing that explains why people are apt to write off the JWs as a cult, you know.
Originally posted by robbie carrobiecorrect. there is no proper 'translation' of ancient hebrew into english for the phrase.
no it doesn't and no it wasn't. Please tell me what the original Hebrew states, you can
go to any interlinear and find out, please tell me what the original Greek states, as
found in the Septuagint, i dont know how you will find it, i have a copy in my library.
"ehyeh-asher-ehyeh"
can be translated to:
"exists, that which exists"
"i will be what i will be" (direct hebrew understanding of the term)
the most accurate would be just to leave it as "ehyeh" untranslated, since it is considered one of the 7 names of god.
"i am that i am" is probably the most inaccurate english translation you can get from the root meaning of the term. it's an obvious edit by the trinitarians to push their dogma onto the unsuspecting, illiterate people of those times (and these times!). it's easy to verify this, just a couple verses earlier, the same term is correctly translated as "i will be"
however you translate it, trying to mesh up ancient hebrew with ancient greek and modern english will give you a mixed vegetable soup.