Originally posted by VoidSpiritI don't think it's correct to assume Ashkenazis are Khazars (which is what I think you're hinting at). Their mtDNA more than any other population is Jewish showing a direct matrilineal line to ancient Canaanite Hebrews.
you can tell it was a man made thing since the "prophecy" wasn't fulfilled as written in the bible.
1. the hebrew messiah is supposed to accomplish this thing. he is nowhere to be found. the jews scrambled to find one, they could not.
2. the israelis are supposed to return to a reconstituted israel; the israelis are nowhere to be found. instead t ...[text shortened]... to do so. but they keep trying despite multiple human rights violations filed against them.
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Originally posted by VoidSpiritHow about the entire land of Jordan (once called Transjordan) carved out of the land originally to be given to the jews, just because the arabs complained they were being kicked out of a land they just happened to be occupying without benefit of a state, and didn't even occupy in large numbers until after the land deal was announced by the British?
you can tell it was a man made thing since the "prophecy" wasn't fulfilled as written in the bible.
1. the hebrew messiah is supposed to accomplish this thing. he is nowhere to be found. the jews scrambled to find one, they could not.
2. the israelis are supposed to return to a reconstituted israel; the israelis are nowhere to be found. instead t to do so. but they keep trying despite multiple human rights violations filed against them.
And as for human rights violations, what about the deplorable conditions of the "repatriation camps" the arabs put in place and forced arabs to relocate to just so they could demonstrate a large population in those lands?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungwhich studies show this and who did them?
I don't think it's correct to assume Ashkenazis are Khazars (which is what I think you're hinting at). Their mtDNA more than any other population is Jewish showing a direct matrilineal line to ancient Canaanite Hebrews.
here is one study that has found a large number of central asian genes among jews;
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/world/geneticists-report-finding-central-asian-link-to-levites.html
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThat's because He's not due back until nearly the end of the Battle of Armageddon. He'll be back at that time to kick ass and take names, unlike His "Rabbi Love" persona the first time, and the Jews will finally have their Messiah.
1. the hebrew messiah is supposed to accomplish this thing. he is nowhere to be found. the jews scrambled to find one, they could not.
Originally posted by Suzianneirrelevant in the context to which you are replying. but since you bring it up, who are the british and what gives them a right to establish colonies in lands occupied by other people?
How about the entire land of Jordan (once called Transjordan) carved out of the land originally to be given to the jews, just because the arabs complained they were being kicked out of a land they just happened to be occupying without benefit of a state, and didn't even occupy in large numbers until after the land deal was announced by the British?
i suppose you also believe that if you're a single person living in a large house, the government has a right to allow other people to move into your house. can i make that assumption based on your reply or would you like to reiterate your position?
also, are you aware which state used to own those lands and what treaties the british made with the natives in exchange for their help in WW1?
And as for human rights violations, what about the deplorable conditions of the "repatriation camps" the arabs put in place and forced arabs to relocate to just so they could demonstrate a large population in those lands?
so i'll just assume that you believe if bad things are done by other people, it justifies bad things done by you.
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
which studies show this and who did them?
here is one study that has found a large number of central asian genes among jews;
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/world/geneticists-report-finding-central-asian-link-to-levites.html
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf
Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to
one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only 4 women carrying distinct
mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among
non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry, underwent major
expansion(s) in Europe within the past millennium.
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Void's article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/world/geneticists-report-finding-central-asian-link-to-levites.html
...52 percent of Levites of Ashkenazi origin have a particular genetic signature that originated in Central Asia, although it is also found less frequently in the Middle East. The ancestor who introduced it into the Ashkenazi Levites could perhaps have been from the Khazars, a Turkic tribe whose king converted to Judaism in the eighth or ninth century, the researchers suggest.
This article is about Ashkenazim. You should be careful when you generalize from Ashekenazim to Jews. I guess the Ashkenazi male line has a lot of Khazar blood after all. But the female line is extremely Jewish biologically. In Jewish culture that's really the most important thing anyway; whether the mother was a Jew, not whether the father was.
Originally posted by Suziannewrong, you're talking about the false messiah. according to the old testament bible, the messiah is supposed to appear for the one and only time and reconstitute israel and judea.
That's because He's not due back until nearly the end of the Battle of Armageddon. He'll be back at that time to kick ass and take names, unlike His "Rabbi Love" persona the first time, and the Jews will finally have their Messiah.
he did not appear. he did not reconstitute israel and judea. jesus did not do any of these things, ergo he's another in the long line of failed/false messiahs.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungashkenazis account for over 80% of the worlds jews, and they're the largest group of jews in israel.
Void's article:
[quote]http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/world/geneticists-report-finding-central-asian-link-to-levites.html
...52 percent of Levites of Ashkenazi origin have a particular genetic signature that originated in Central Asia, although it is also found less frequently in the Middle East. The ancestor who introduced it into the Ashkenazi ...[text shortened]... ize from Ashekenazim to Jews. I guess the Ashkenazi male line has a lot of Khazar blood after all.
But the female line is extremely Jewish biologically. In Jewish culture that's really the most important thing anyway; whether the mother was a Jew, not whether the father was.
too many conflicting reports on the female lineage. some reports say nearly no middle eastern ancestry, some say about 40-50%, some say all the dna can be traced to about 4 women and their origin is 'probably' middle eastern.
modern studies show 35-55% european origin.
as a further consideration, having dna that traces to "middle eastern origin" does not mean they are hebrew. a lot of people from middle east migrated north and west into europe and asia and intermingled with the populations there. most of them were semitic peoples.
there are even reports from ancient historians of the edomites of idumea being forced to convert to judaism (josephus). this is also in the concise jewish encyclopedia.
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Originally posted by VoidSpiritWhat "too many reports" are you referring to? Do you know of scientific papers that contradict the one I offered up?
ashkenazis account for over 80% of the worlds jews, and they're the largest group of jews in israel.But the female line is extremely Jewish biologically. In Jewish culture that's really the most important thing anyway; whether the mother was a Jew, not whether the father was.
too many conflicting reports on the female lineage. s forced to convert to judaism (josephus). this is also in the concise jewish encyclopedia.
You are hyperskeptical IMO. You claim they're Europeans; I show their mtDNA came from the Middle East, and now you imply they're Middle Eastern but not Jewish. Very odd.
EDIT - Here's a webpage that addresses this topic:
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/khazars.htm
I hope you're not one of those loons that thinks the English are Jews...
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThat's a pretty narrow definition of a messiah you have there, man.
wrong, you're talking about the false messiah. according to the old testament bible, the messiah is supposed to appear for the one and only time and reconstitute israel and judea.
he did not appear. he did not reconstitute israel and judea. jesus did not do any of these things, ergo he's another in the long line of failed/false messiahs.
Originally posted by AThousandYounghere are links to many studies and abstracts from those studies.
What "too many reports" are you referring to? Do you know of scientific papers that contradict the one I offered up?
You are hyperskeptical IMO. You claim they're Europeans; I show their mtDNA came from the Middle East, and now you imply they're Middle Eastern but not Jewish. Very odd.
EDIT - Here's a webpage that addresses this topic:
htt ...[text shortened]... ty/khazars.htm
I hope you're not one of those loons that thinks the English are Jews...
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html
there are studies that show;
1. large number of ashkenazi women have origins that are local to various areas.
2. large amount of european genes in ashkenazi jews
2. only about half of ashkenazi jews show lineage to the middle east and of this it is uncertain if they are actually hebrew origin.
3. large amounts of central asian genes.
the story shows a large mix bag of people from various regions of the middle east, central asia and europe culminating in a single religious identity.
another thing for consideration; a lot of semitic people migrated out of the middle east. further these semitic people intermarried with the people of central asia and europe, it would not be unusual to find middle eastern gene markers in people of central asian and european descent.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungno, but i did read an interesting theory that they might be phonecians. that was years ago and i can't remember the source.
I hope you're not one of those loons that thinks the English are Jews..
why do you think the people who believe the english are jews are loons?
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Originally posted by VoidSpiritI'll look at your sources.
here are links to many studies and abstracts from those studies.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html
The English are of the Germanic branch of Indo-European. They're not related to Semites in any way. When Jews were enslaved, the English were doing what they've always done, slaughtering Celts, completely illiterate and on the othe ...[text shortened]... e unusual to find middle eastern gene markers in people of central asian and european descent.
Why do you think this particular Middle Eastern mtDNA - which apparently ONLY occurs in other Jews, not other Semites - is in such high concentration in the Ashkenazi community?
1. That's true of every ethnic group.
2. Well of course, they're Jews who went to Europe. Persian Jews have a lot of Iranian DNA too.
2b. See 1.
3. Almost wrote "see 1" but American Indians, Australian Aborigines and sub-Saharan Africans might not have much Indo-European blood (which is central Asian).