25 Feb 06
1 edit
Originally posted by DragonFriendNebuchadnezzar II failed to sack Tyre, after 13 years of trying, and he was the guy Ezekiel said was going to attack Tyre. But, of course, you'll ignore the fact that Ezekiel actually named the guy who was going to attack Tyre, and that that guy failed. Rather, you'll cast around in the text, looking for something to support an alternate interpretation of the prophesy, perhaps something about the word 'nation' or 'nations', and then you'll claim "Look, the city was successfully sacked by Alexander the Great, so I guess that fulfilled the prophecy." (And you'll conveniently ignore that this sort of retroactive cherry picking of evidence doesn't justify calling a claim prophetic, since I can prophesy that Seattle will have a big earthquake, and I'll be right some day).
I agree, much of what is considered prophesy is vague, but those aren't the ones that impress me. How about this one:
Eze 26:12 And they shall plunder your riches, and make a prey of your merchandise. And they shall break down your walls and destroy your desirable houses. And they shall lay your stones and your timber and your dust in the midst of the water.
Is that specific enough?
DF
But then you have to explain the fact the Ezekiel predicted the permanent destruction of Tyre, whereas Isaiah predicted the destruction of Tyre being only temporary. In fact, since Tyre continued to be a center of commerce, and a functioning town, from the time of Alexander the Great through the present day, Ezekial's prophesy was wrong.
25 Feb 06
1 edit
Originally posted by DragonFriendWell one should think that the sun being older than the earth (despite Genesis claiming it the other way around), and a 3.6 million year old proto-human skeleton on a 10,000 year old earth should do it.
OK. What evidence directly contradicts the Bible?
And, please, be specific.
DF
[Edit] Ooops. Looks like bbarr was right.
Hey! We have a prophet among us!
25 Feb 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzWhat do you mean making the earth that old? Don't you know its
Well one should think that the sun being older than the earth (despite Genesis claiming it the other way around), and a 3.6 million year old proto-human skeleton on a 10,000 year old earth should do it.
6004 years old, not 10,000! Just ask Pat Robertson.
25 Feb 06
Originally posted by DragonFriendThe problem here is you seem to automatically link a prophecy to
I agree, much of what is considered prophesy is vague, but those aren't the ones that impress me. How about this one:
Eze 26:12 And they shall plunder your riches, and make a prey of your merchandise. And they shall break down your walls and destroy your desirable houses. And they shall lay your stones and your timber and your dust in the midst of the water.
Is that specific enough?
DF
it having to had come from a god. There are no rules against man
having powers we don't think possible at this time. There is evidence,
not rigorous of course, that telepathy exists and so forth. Why does
prophecy a priora have to come from a god? Even if its real.
25 Feb 06
Originally posted by bbarrEh? While you'll not likely find anyone here who is willing to challenge your grasp of compbatil-thingymajiggy-ism, I must take exception to your take on history.
In fact, since Tyre continued to be a center of commerce, and a functioning town, from the time of Alexander the Great through the present day, Ezekial's prophesy was wrong.
Nebby did lay siege to mainland Tyre. When he busted down the gates, the city was all but empty: the majority of folks had moved to an island about a mile off the coast. The mainland city was destroyed around 573 BC, with the island city becoming a powerful city for a few hundred years.
Alex came next, and through the course of his conquest, met with some resistance from the folks of Tyre. Whatever had been built up since the previous destruction of mainland Tyre, Alex demolished. With that debris, he built a causeway 200 feet wide, to the 'other' city. This was obviously no small feat. Therefore, Alex 'entreated' other cities in the surrounding area to join the fun. With their naval contributions and his single-minded determination, it took about seven months for the island city to fall (332 BC).
P. Meyers, in his (secular) textbook for high school and college students, General History for Colleges and High Schools (Boston, Ginn & Co.), writes:
"Alexander the Great reduced Tyre to ruins in 332 BC. Tyre recovered in a measure from this blow, but never regained the place she had previously held in the world. The larger part of the site of the once great city is now as bare as the top of a rock -- a place where the fishermen that still frequent the spot spread their nets to dry" (pg.55)
Although Tyre continues to cycle through rebuilding/demolition for many years following Alex's resounding triumph, sixteen hundred years later, Tyre falls and (to present) fails to rise again.
There exists today a city with the name of Tyre, but it is down the coast from the original city, and is not the trade and commercial center the ancient Tyre once was; the mistress of the sea is gone. Instead, Tyre has become a fishing village, where fishermen spread their nets, and nothing more.
25 Feb 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHposted by dragonfriend:
Vague enough? Your assertion is overly vague. Perhaps you could exegete the passage in question, and clarify the alleged vagarity.
Eze 26:12 And they shall plunder your riches, and make a prey of your merchandise. And they shall break down your walls and destroy your desirable houses. And they shall lay your stones and your timber and your dust in the midst of the water.
this is what i refer to. it's vague because it states no real specifics.
try to keep up.
25 Feb 06
1 edit
Originally posted by Rolfeythis is what i refer to. it's vague because it states no real specifics.
posted by dragonfriend:
Eze 26:12 And they shall plunder your riches, and make a prey of your merchandise. And they shall break down your walls and destroy your desirable houses. And they shall lay your stones and your timber and your dust in the midst of the water.
try to keep up.
I'll do what I can to spell it out for you.
1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,' 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
7 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says to Tyre: Will not the coastlands tremble at the sound of your fall, when the wounded groan and the slaughter takes place in you? 16 Then all the princes of the coast will step down from their thrones and lay aside their robes and take off their embroidered garments. Clothed with terror, they will sit on the ground, trembling every moment, appalled at you. 17 Then they will take up a lament concerning you and say to you:
" 'How you are destroyed, O city of renown,
peopled by men of the sea!
You were a power on the seas,
you and your citizens;
you put your terror
on all who lived there.
18 Now the coastlands tremble
on the day of your fall;
the islands in the sea
are terrified at your collapse.'
19 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."
That's the NIV translation. Any part of this unclear?
You claim the prophecy of doom wasn't specific. Take a gander at verse two, about the part that says "because Tyre has said," and then again in verse three, which says, "the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre..."
Now, there are some who could say, 'that could be used about any city.' But, somehow, Tyre and, say, New York, aren't real similar, now are they?
Care to get into the rest of the passage, relative to application and/or fulfillment?
25 Feb 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHthe quote from DF that I referred to is not in your explanation anywhere. that is one of the reasons it was vague.
[b]this is what i refer to. it's vague because it states no real specifics.
try to keep up.
I'll do what I can to spell it out for you.
1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open ...[text shortened]... t into the rest of the passage, relative to application and/or fulfillment?[/b]
admittedly it was a small point but still worth making. DF's quote really could have referred to viking activity.
25 Feb 06
Originally posted by RolfeyWhich is exactly why I offered you the opportunity to exegete the passage in its entirety. Do try to keep up.
the quote from DF that I referred to is not in your explanation anywhere. that is one of the reasons it was vague.
admittedly it was a small point but still worth making. DF's quote really could have referred to viking activity.
25 Feb 06
2 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBHChristian re-writing of history is always an interesting fantasy. Tyre was built both on the island and the adjoining mainland. Freaky's take is that the city was actually taken by the Babylonians and the people fled to some deserted island, but this is nonsense. The island off the coast was always the principal settlement of the city of Tyre.
Eh? While you'll not likely find anyone here who is willing to challenge your grasp of compbatil-thingymajiggy-ism, I must take exception to your take on history.
Nebby did lay siege to mainland Tyre. When he busted down the gates, the city was all but empty: the majority of folks had moved to an island about a mile off the coast. The mainland city w Tyre has become a fishing village, where fishermen spread their nets, and nothing more.
Moreover, King Hiram was himself a builder. He enlarged the island portion of Tyre by filling in the shallower regions of the sea around, and this new land he laid out in squares of palaces and temples. He constructed also an open plaza like those of Italian cities, whereon his people might stroll in the sun or gather for important occasions.
http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/The_Story_of_the_Greatest_Nations_and_the_Worlds_Famous_Events_Vol_1/ancientc_jg.html
King Hiram came to the throne of Tyre approx. 980 BC, 400 years before the unsuccessful Babylonian siege of Tyre.