Originally posted by JS357
"But what I am talking about is that the human heart is sick, has been since the beginning."

You are pointing out a fundamental conflict between two natural "bents" in humans. To name them is to limit them, but here is my effort. The individual person sees two ways to thrive: by taking for himself, and by cooperative effort. These two ways are reflections o narrative is, we are stuck with the situation much as it is described in religious texts.

I think you miss my point. What I am speaking of are the two natures in scripture.
Hopefully another Christian here can articulate it better than I can. But please allow me to take another stab at it. This is basic foundational Christianity. I will have to insert some scripture to help me explain...
Jer 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?
Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil?
NKJV
This is what I meant about the pig. A pig is a pig by nature, and will continue to act as such. Even if you buy it a house or modify it in some way, it's very nature will rule out. It will always behave like a pig. Same with a cat, dog or any animal.
Since the curse of Genesis 3:15, every man/woman inherits the curse through Adam. They will be born with a sinful nature. Can they do good? Sure! But they will always have that inclination to do what is morally wrong. The potential is there. That is why I did not have to teach my children to be selfish, (as in "No mine!).
Humans naturally tend to be selfish, and much more than selfish....unless restrained by law or moral teaching.

Jesus knew what was in man..

Mark 7:20-23
And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man."
NKJV

Here is a section from Romans..

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
KJV

Rom 5:15-19
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
KJV
The sin nature entered through Adam, the free gift, the solution comes through the 2nd Adam, Jesus Christ.
When Jesus returns to this earth on the clouds to gather His church, we will lose the sin nature altogether and the new nature will remain.
But as I stated in another reply, for Christians it is a daily battle in the mind.
Look at what Paul said...

1 Cor 15:29-31
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily
NKJV

Rom 6:1-14
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,[b] 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.[b] 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
NKJV
Romans 6 is all about the two natures...I hope this helps , or as I mentioned, will another Christian articulate this better than myself? Please? 🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
When the bible speaks of the heart it is referring to the mind. I know the greek word for mind is nous, but when it speaks of the heart(without getting into all the greek and aramaic words, to save time) it is the "real you", if you will. It is the seat of personal thought, our makeup.
We did not have a choice in that it was in our nature to sin, now we ...[text shortened]... peace, etc. I am sorry if I am rambling on, I get excited about this stuff...Peace..🙂

Thank you checkbaiter. I do not argue with the real heart. However you "see" it, your commitment to your way shines, and I bow. My plea that it is not the only "seeing" or way of the "heart". Buddhists have a treasured Sutra by that very name - The Heart Sutra.

Originally posted by Taoman
Thank you checkbaiter. I do not argue with the real heart. However you "see" it, your commitment to your way shines, and I bow. My plea that it is not the only "seeing" or way of the "heart". Buddhists have a treasured Sutra by that very name - The Heart Sutra.

My heart trembles as I write this, because I know many will be offended, but the loving thing to say is what I have been taught, and that is that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. I did not write the book....
My heart aches for people, knowing what their outcome will be.
You have some very good qualities, I see your kindness and would be proud to address you as friend, who knows?...maybe some day we will see eye to eye on these matters....take care...CB..🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I think you miss my point. What I am speaking of are the two natures in scripture.
Hopefully another Christian here can articulate it better than I can. But please allow me to take another stab at it. This is basic foundational Christianity. I will have to insert some scripture to help me explain...
Jer 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the ...[text shortened]... or as I mentioned, will another Christian articulate this better than myself? Please? 🙂

"I think you miss my point. What I am speaking of are the two natures in scripture. "

I believe we are broadly speaking of the same thing, in different ways. Why else would the most essential Biblical narrative have arisen, if not to address such essential issues?

Originally posted by JS357
"I think you miss my point. What I am speaking of are the two natures in scripture. "

I believe we are broadly speaking of the same thing, in different ways. Why else would the most essential Biblical narrative have arisen, if not to address such essential issues?

Good point, but since I believe the scriptures are true, I use it as my foundation. But I must admit the Buddhist thinking is interesting. However I suspect that in the end the Lord will enlighten me to it's deception..🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
My heart trembles as I write this, because I know many will be offended, but the loving thing to say is what I have been taught, and that is that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. I did not write the book....
My heart aches for people, knowing what their outcome will be.
You have some very good qualities, I see your kindness and ...[text shortened]... riend, who knows?...maybe some day we will see eye to eye on these matters....take care...CB..🙂

Ah, well.
It doesn't sound like the Jesus of the early gospels to me. That sounds like later religio-political propaganda of a century or more later. The Bible is a conditioned book. There is much contradiction between the early and later segments. Christian triumphalism is evident in The Revelations, very different to the Jesus portrayed in Mark's gospel.
Nevertheless, keep to the heart-mind. As I see it, we are all wrong, and ever learning to "see", for the Transcendent cannot be encapsulated in any words or concepts.
Peace to you cb.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
My heart trembles as I write this, because I know many will be offended, but the loving thing to say is what I have been taught, and that is that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. I did not write the book....
My heart aches for people, knowing what their outcome will be.
You have some very good qualities, I see your kindness and ...[text shortened]... riend, who knows?...maybe some day we will see eye to eye on these matters....take care...CB..🙂

"offended"?
Who's going to be offended? This line has been going around since my whole life so I certainly aint going to be offended.

You didn't write the book but you sure as hell interpetted it a hell of a lot different to me 🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Good point, but since I believe the scriptures are true, I use it as my foundation. But I must admit the Buddhist thinking is interesting. However I suspect that in the end the Lord will enlighten me to it's deception..🙂

Again. Sheer craziness.

'I cant find anything wrong with Buddhism but I'm sure there is because they dont tell me to worship Jesus'. Is that about the gist of it? Or have I wrongly assumed something here?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
My heart trembles as I write this, because I know many will be offended, but the loving thing to say is what I have been taught, and that is that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. I did not write the book....
My heart aches for people, knowing what their outcome will be.
You have some very good qualities, I see your kindness and ...[text shortened]... riend, who knows?...maybe some day we will see eye to eye on these matters....take care...CB..🙂

"My heart aches for people, knowing what their outcome will be. "

But do you know what people's outcomes will be?

I would call that arrogant if you weren't presenting yourself as such a considerate and caring person. So I believe your heart might actually be aching over feelings of helplessness in affecting other people's outcomes.

Originally posted by Taoman
Ah, well.
It doesn't sound like the Jesus of the early gospels to me. That sounds like later religio-political propaganda of a century or more later. The Bible is a conditioned book. There is much contradiction between the early and later segments. Christian triumphalism is evident in The Revelations, very different to the Jesus portrayed in Mark's gospel. ...[text shortened]... e", for the Transcendent cannot be encapsulated in any words or concepts.
Peace to you cb.

"There is much contradiction between the early and later segments. Christian triumphalism is evident in The Revelations, very different to the Jesus portrayed in Mark's gospel."
I'm sorry, I don't see the contradictions...can you be more specific? Jesus spoke of the triumph to come all through the gospels, though He did not know all the details...

Originally posted by checkbaiter
"There is much contradiction between the early and later segments. Christian triumphalism is evident in The Revelations, very different to the Jesus portrayed in Mark's gospel."
I'm sorry, I don't see the contradictions...can you be more specific? Jesus spoke of the triumph to come all through the gospels, though He did not know all the details...

Its pointless. This underlies the problem. Since time immemorial Christians have argued and fought about particular interpretations of texts. etc. If you cannot see how the two books are different in their imaging of the constructed Jesus immediately (something, well known even in Christian exegesis), you need to read more of the history and discussions of the 'New Testament' and its origins.

Just from the point of view that the books and texts of the Bible rely on being interpreted through multiple languages and ever different interpretations underlies its human conditionality. Where is the "authority" of the Bible in all that?
Just in your particular interpretation. And thus we go round in circles, while you wave your false triumphant banner with its idolatrous "ONLY" on it, constantly referring back to the very textual "authority" under discussion. I get dizzy going around in circles.

Genuine historians are seriously arguing if a single person "Jeshua" can be located in all the mythic religio-political formation. No-one of numerous objective witnesses to the time mentions him. The earliest written Christian material (Mark) was a generation after he was supposed to be around, and people died early in those days. There are many obvious borrowings from the Christian writings and similarities to other movements and the abounding religious messiah sects of the time, along with attempts to work this mysterious 'godman' into an OT supporting narrative.

There were many "Jeshuas" of that time, some bearing strange histories similar to your Jeshua. Which one was he? Or was he an amalgam of oral streams?

You can live by your "Jeshua" of constructed faith, but its time (as it was centuries ago) to drop the triumphalism. It creates division and blocks open thought. The triumphalist, fundamentalist position is what I seriously intend to deconstruct as much as I can. - without anger and with personal respect to individuals. And I ask other freethinkers to join me. It is an arrogant attitude to look down on other faiths and philosophies, including atheistic ones, in that manner. Often accompanied by constant swiping at others' 'inabilty' to live properly or effectively - unless, of course you are "saved" by the godman, literally sacrificed to appease his angry judging "Father". It is a powerful myth, and can be helpful if approached in that way. Not literally.

The literal "Son of God" - godman - can become a tyrant of the mind. Who can argue with a god? That's why it was constructed and embellished over the centuries. Godmen (no godwomen, which is interesting, although there were godesses) were a dime a dozen at that time.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
"There is much contradiction between the early and later segments. Christian triumphalism is evident in The Revelations, very different to the Jesus portrayed in Mark's gospel."
I'm sorry, I don't see the contradictions...can you be more specific? Jesus spoke of the triumph to come all through the gospels, though He did not know all the details...

"Jesus spoke of the triumph to come all through the gospels, though He did not know all the details..."

This implies that Jesus was not the omniscient being called God.

Was Jesus omniscient while on earth?

There is some discussion of this question at:

http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/583/

Originally posted by JS357
"Jesus spoke of the triumph to come all through the gospels, though He did not know all the details..."

This implies that Jesus was not the omniscient being called God.

Was Jesus omniscient while on earth?

There is some discussion of this question at:

http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/583/

"Was Jesus omniscient while on earth?"....No


I do not believe Jesus is God, the bible says the son of God. The Trinity has caused all sorts of confusion and contradiction in the bible. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, God raised him from the dead, God highly exalted him...this is what the bible says.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
"Was Jesus omniscient while on earth?"....No


I do not believe Jesus is God, the bible says the son of God. The Trinity has caused all sorts of confusion and contradiction in the bible. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, God raised him from the dead, God highly exalted him...this is what the bible says.

OK I'm just trying to get an understanding of what you believe.

There are plenty of threads on this forum about the trinity. I don't mean to get into it on this thread.

Originally posted by JS357
"My heart aches for people, knowing what their outcome will be. "

But do you know what people's outcomes will be?

I would call that arrogant if you weren't presenting yourself as such a considerate and caring person. So I believe your heart might actually be aching over feelings of helplessness in affecting other people's outcomes.

I am helpless in affecting other peoples outcomes, other than speaking what the bible says.
I am a considerate and caring person, at least I try to be.

If you believe it is arrogant that is your call. I am simply a messenger.
The basis of eternal death, ( and by the way, I do not believe in eternal suffering, it is not in God's character to punish forever)it is a choice. I know it sounds arrogant to say Jesus is the only way to the Father, but that is what he said and I believe it.

I have had prayers answered, been healed physically by laying on of hands, I have been taught by the Lord Jesus when He taught me scripture I thought I already knew, I have a relationship with Him, I have peace of mind, joy of His presence in my life, I can pray in tongues, I can give words of prophecy in a church/fellowship setting, and I can go on and on about what I can be thankful for.

So after having this long standing relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, I simply believe that the bible is true, it will not be understood by unbelievers, in fact, it will appear foolish to the wise, the intelligent ones. God chose the foolish things of the world to reveal Himself, of which I am one.
I look at it like someone threw me a lifesaver while I was drowning and I grabbed it. Some people don't like the color of the lifesaver, or the shape, so they look for another way.
I do not see God as arrogant, He is loving and holy and hates sin.
The anger and hate, wars, poverty and such are not the will of God. The bible says this world is controlled by the god of this world(satan). He is the one who causes misery, deceives, hates good and hates God.
Sin is like a cancer. It destroys people, families. It is the cause of heart ache and sorrow, poverty, and on and on.
God gave His Son, freely to pay for our sins if we accept Him as our sacrifice, those who don't receive Him will die in their sins. They will be destroyed and be no more, along with satan and his host.
People on this forum should reconsider their attacks on the bible, and start looking at the archaeological evidence that supports it. There is plenty of it.