1. Joined
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    01 Nov '08 21:232 edits
    The bravest acts are atheistic

    My reasoning is this:

    Atheist generally don’t believe that there is an afterlife while most theists do (at least I assume most do -please correct me if I am wrong here).

    So, if a typical theist performs an act of self sacrifice where he knowing sacrifices his life to save some other people, that would not be as brave as an atheist doing the same thing because an atheist would usually believe that death simply just means that, death, while a theist that believes in an afterlife wouldn’t actually believe that he will really “die” because he would be comforted by the belief that he will go to some kind of afterlife. And, the stronger his faith in the afterlife, the less brave his act of self sacrifice would be because he would have less to fear in his mind. And, he may even believe he would be rewarded in the afterlife for his act of self sacrifice in which case he would be even less brave for doing it because he would believe he would actually benefit from it!

    This contrasts with an atheist who has no comforting belief in an afterlife and so would not expect any continuation of his existence after his sacrifice let alone some kind of “reward“ thus the bravest acts or atheistic because the bravest act would be an atheist killing himself to save others.

    Having said that, I am guessing here that the average atheist would be less likely to sacrifice himself for others precisely because that act would be braver for an atheist to do! -that, of course, doesn’t change the fact that when an atheist DOES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest kind of act of them all.

    Any thoughts?
  2. Joined
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    01 Nov '08 21:31
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    The bravest acts are atheistic

    My reasoning is this:

    Atheist generally don’t believe that there is an afterlife while most theists do (at least I assume most do -please correct me if I am wrong here).

    So, if a typical theist performs an act of self sacrifice where he knowing sacrifices his life to save some other people, that would not be a ...[text shortened]... heist DOES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest act of them all.

    Any thoughts?
    Following this reasoning the theist's sacrifice is smaller but the results of his sacrifice are smaller too; if he would not save those 'other people' they would go to an afterlife too. So it pretty much evens out roughly.
  3. Donationrwingett
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    01 Nov '08 21:36
    Originally posted by schakuhr
    Following this reasoning the theist's sacrifice is smaller but the results of his sacrifice are smaller too; if he would not save those 'other people' they would go to an afterlife too. So it pretty much evens out roughly.
    What if a theist saved an atheist? Would neither of them be rewarded with an afterlife?
  4. Joined
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    01 Nov '08 21:397 edits
    Originally posted by schakuhr
    Following this reasoning the theist's sacrifice is smaller but the results of his sacrifice are smaller too; if he would not save those 'other people' they would go to an afterlife too. So it pretty much evens out roughly.
    I hadn’t thought of that -good point.

    If you actually believe that saving those people only merely postpones them going to the afterlife then, in your mind, you are not doing them such a big favour by "saving" them!

    But, on the other hand, the theist may actually believe that he will be rewarded in the afterlife for doing this but probably he wouldn’t believe that the people he saves would be rewarded in the afterlife merely for being “saved“ by him! -so I don’t think it “evens out” completely for that reason!
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    01 Nov '08 21:46
    Originally posted by rwingett
    What if a theist saved an atheist? Would neither of them be rewarded with an afterlife?
    Depends on the belief of the theist. I don't know the specifics, but I doubt any of the mainstream religions encourage to leave nonbelievers to their doom if the situation would arise.
    The important thing is not whether the theist or atheist would go to an afterlife, but whether they believe it - this will affect the likelyhood of a 'brave' act on their part.
  6. Donationbbarr
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    01 Nov '08 22:541 edit
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    The bravest acts are atheistic

    My reasoning is this:

    Atheist generally don’t believe that there is an afterlife while most theists do (at least I assume most do -please correct me if I am wrong here).

    So, if a typical theist performs an act of self sacrifice where he knowing sacrifices his life to save some other people, that would not be a ...[text shortened]... ES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest kind of act of them all.

    Any thoughts?
    What if a theist honestly believes that act A is a sin, and that by performing A he will be damning himself to Hell, yet performs A anyway in order to save another? Given what the theist believes the risk to be, this seems like a case of astounding bravery.
  7. Illinois
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    02 Nov '08 03:19
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    The bravest acts are atheistic

    My reasoning is this:

    Atheist generally don’t believe that there is an afterlife while most theists do (at least I assume most do -please correct me if I am wrong here).

    So, if a typical theist performs an act of self sacrifice where he knowing sacrifices his life to save some other people, that would not be a ...[text shortened]... ES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest kind of act of them all.

    Any thoughts?
    A Christian saved by grace through faith does not act heroically in order to spend eternity in heaven. Heaven is already assured. A Christian who acts heroically is motivated by a sense of gratitude and duty to the Lord Jesus Christ; i.e., Christ died for the Christian, therefore the Christian is willing to die for Him (should that be the Lord's will).

    I wonder, would atheists, because they generally believe that this life is all there is, be more inclined to be concerned about others knowing how brave their act of self-sacrifice was? Would an atheist be more concerned about public recognition, as opposed to a Christian who would be more inclined to consider an act of self-sacrifice par for the course?
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    02 Nov '08 07:33
    Originally posted by bbarr
    What if a theist honestly believes that act A is a sin, and that by performing A he will be damning himself to Hell, yet performs A anyway in order to save another? Given what the theist believes the risk to be, this seems like a case of astounding bravery.
    I can't see any sin perception attached to the act. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends"
  9. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    02 Nov '08 13:402 edits
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    The bravest acts are atheistic

    My reasoning is this:

    Atheist generally don’t believe that there is an afterlife while most theists do (at least I assume most do -please correct me if I am wrong here).

    So, if a typical theist performs an act of self sacrifice where he knowing sacrifices his life to save some other people, that would not be a ...[text shortened]... ES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest kind of act of them all.

    Any thoughts?
    Name one atheist that sacrificed his or her life for others? It's possible there's one somewhere.
    Before setting yourself and other atheists up as some kind of heroes, I would suggest doing the act of laying your life on the line for others first. Don't just talk about it as what if. Join the military somewhere in the world that's fighting for a cause that you thinks just for others. It's there somewhere.
    Don't just sit on your computer making yourself out to be some kind of hero just because you don't want to believe in God. That's really a joke.

    I wonder if any of the office workers that were trapped above the 90th floor of World trade center 1 after the plane crashed into it were atheists. The choice was either keep burning alive or jump out a 100th floor window. I bet there was some quick conversions before their leap of faith,
    And mister hero, I'm sure you would be one of them while crying like a little girl all the way down.


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  10. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    02 Nov '08 15:53
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    Name one atheist that sacrificed his or her life for others? It's possible there's one somewhere.
    Before setting yourself and other atheists up as some kind of heroes, I would suggest doing the act of laying your life on the line for others first. Don't just talk about it as what if. Join the military somewhere in the world that's fighting for a ...[text shortened]... ng like a little girl all the way down.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh2ee2Vciwk
    Indeed, much faith is built on terror of God.
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    02 Nov '08 16:47
    Originally posted by KingDavid403
    Name one atheist that sacrificed his or her life for others? It's possible there's one somewhere.
    Before setting yourself and other atheists up as some kind of heroes, I would suggest doing the act of laying your life on the line for others first. Don't just talk about it as what if. Join the military somewhere in the world that's fighting for a ...[text shortened]... ng like a little girl all the way down.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh2ee2Vciwk
    There are plenty of atheists in the military, and I think that (as far as they are concerned), that counts as putting their life on the line to save another. I haven't so much laid my life on the line, but I personally used to be involved in activist projects to help people directly, and often found both my job and my personal physical safety at risk. Not to mention numerous leaders of important social movements for things like the eight-hour work day and minimum wage or civil rights throughout the history of the US in the twentieth century. Many of them were atheists, and many of them died--some tortured brutally by the police.

    And he wasn't setting it up like we're automatically heroes for being atheists. Don't twist his words around. That's dishonest.
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    02 Nov '08 16:511 edit
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    A Christian saved by grace through faith does not act heroically in order to spend eternity in heaven. Heaven is already assured. A Christian who acts heroically is motivated by a sense of gratitude and duty to the Lord Jesus Christ; i.e., Christ died for the Christian, therefore the Christian is willing to die for Him (should that be the Lord's will). ...[text shortened]... a Christian who would be more inclined to consider an act of self-sacrifice par for the course?
    It hasn't been my experience that Christians on the whole are any more moral than atheists. If a Christian is no more willing to sacrifice his desires to follow the will of God than an atheist - sense of gratitude and duty to the Lord Jesus Christ notwithstanding, what would lead you to believe that he'd be more willing to sacrifice his life in a selfless manner? Christians are as self-serving as any other. Perhaps more so. Your assertion that Christians are "more inclined to consider an act of self-sacrifice par for the course" is seriously naive.
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    02 Nov '08 17:021 edit
    Originally posted by convect
    There are plenty of atheists in the military, and I think that (as far as they are concerned), that counts as putting their life on the line to save another. I haven't so much laid my life on the line, but I personally used to be involved in activist projects to help people directly, and often found both my job and my personal physical safety at risk. Not automatically heroes for being atheists. Don't twist his words around. That's dishonest.
    …he wasn't setting it up like we're automatically heroes for being atheists.. …

    I can confirm that.

    KingDavid403

    Didn’t you read all of my original post? -here is a reminder of the critical bit here of that post:

    “…Having said that, I am guessing here that the average atheist would be LESS likely to sacrifice himself for others …..” (my emphases)

    By any stretch of the imagination, does that say or imply or sound like that I am “setting yourself and other atheists up as some kind of heroes” (your words) ? If I was doing that then it would seem peculiar that I would backtrack and show modesty in the very same post don't you think?
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    02 Nov '08 17:05
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    A Christian saved by grace through faith does not act heroically in order to spend eternity in heaven. Heaven is already assured. A Christian who acts heroically is motivated by a sense of gratitude and duty to the Lord Jesus Christ; i.e., Christ died for the Christian, therefore the Christian is willing to die for Him (should that be the Lord's will). ...[text shortened]... a Christian who would be more inclined to consider an act of self-sacrifice par for the course?
    Why should I require public recognition for my bravery, when I perform an act of self-sacrifice out of an ethical motivation? I've done the right thing--why should public recognition be something I seek? I don't understand why you would even ask that question.

    And I don't think it's true that a Christian is necessarily "more inclined to consider an act of self-sacrifice par for the course" than I am, or any of the atheists I know whose entire lives are build around helping others, sometimes at great cost or risk to themselves. They do this out of their sense of right and wrong, not for some promise of an afterlife or allegiance to mythical being that they talk to in their heads.
  15. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    02 Nov '08 17:282 edits
    Originally posted by convect
    There are plenty of atheists in the military, and I think that (as far as they are concerned), that counts as putting their life on the line to save another. I haven't so much laid my life on the line, but I personally used to be involved in activist projects to help people directly, and often found both my job and my personal physical safety at risk. Not automatically heroes for being atheists. Don't twist his words around. That's dishonest.
    And he wasn't setting it up like we're automatically heroes for being atheists. Don't twist his words around. That's dishonest.

    He started this whole thread with the title "the bravest acts are atheist". I'm not twisting anything around.
    And then he goes on to stat that atheists who Sacrifice their lives for others, are bigger and braver heroes than anyone with faith that does the same thing. That's a complete crock of crap.
    And I say to you, don't try and twist what has been said around. It's not honest.
    It's very clearly stated by Andrew threw out this post that if your atheist, you're already half way to being one of the biggest, bravest heroes to live if you lay down your life for others. Duh!

    And I didn't say that there wasn't any atheists who don't put their life on the line threw their employment.
    And he's talking about voluntarily laying your life down for others. Not military service or a job that you get paid for. Although the act of laying your life down for others can be done threw these.
    I just asked to name one atheist who has laid down their life voluntarily for others, A famous one. And then I said I'm sure there is at least one.

    I personally used to be involved in activist projects to help people directly, and often found both my job and my personal physical safety at risk.
    These risks are faced by everyone everyday. welcome to life.
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