03 Nov 08
Originally posted by Andrew Hamiltona theist that believes in an afterlife wouldn’t actually believe that he will really “die” because he would be comforted by the belief that he will go to some kind of afterlife. And, the stronger his faith in the afterlife, the less brave his act of self sacrifice would be because he would have less to fear in his mind. And, he may even believe he would be rewarded in the afterlife for his act of self sacrifice in which case he would be even less brave for doing it because he would believe he would actually benefit from it!
[b]…And you didn't answer my question fairly of do you deny people of faith fear death? . ..…
That is because it was a stupid question -of course I don’t deny it -where did I say otherwise?
…You're saying that a theist should somehow fear death less because of a belief in the afterlife….
Generally -yes. But, of course, every cas ...[text shortened]... f whether or not they “SHOULDN’T” fear death, just like theists, they DO generally fear death.[/b]
The word “SHOULDN’T” is the operative word here -regardless of whether or not they “SHOULDN’T” fear death, just like atheists, they DO generally fear death.
03 Nov 08
3 edits
Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…It is against the rules of RHP to reply & quote to a post and then change the original post that you're replying to.…
Excuse me - NOT if you state clearly what those changes where that you made:
note the words I wrote at the end of it in brackets -I am referring to the “(my emphasis)” part -how is that “trying to make it look like I s ...[text shortened]... t it was MY emphasis.
Exactly what falsehood do I make out by emphasising those words?[/b]
03 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonYou are clearly making out here that I was saying that that assertion is in fact correct.
[b]…assertion that the bravest act of all time has been preformed by an atheist.
This is your assertion..…
WRONG!!!! You are clearly making out here that I was saying that that assertion is in fact correct.
-will you stop twisting everything I say. You have taken this out of context and you know it!
I obviously was NOT saying nor ...[text shortened]... of the paragraph here because this clearly indicates that I was speaking hypothetically.[/b]
-will you stop twisting everything I say. You have taken this out of context and you know it!
I obviously was NOT saying nor implying that that assertion was in fact correct!
Here's your original post Andrew,
So, if a typical theist performs an act of self sacrifice where he knowing sacrifices his life to save some other people, that would not be as brave as an atheist doing the same thing because an atheist would usually believe that death simply just means that, death, while a theist that believes in an afterlife wouldn’t actually believe that he will really “die” because he would be comforted by the belief that he will go to some kind of afterlife. And, the stronger his faith in the afterlife, the less brave his act of self sacrifice would be because he would have less to fear in his mind. And, he may even believe he would be rewarded in the afterlife for his act of self sacrifice in which case he would be even less brave for doing it because he would believe he would actually benefit from it!
This contrasts with an atheist who has no comforting belief in an afterlife and so would not expect any continuation of his existence after his sacrifice let alone some kind of “reward“ thus the bravest acts are atheistic because the bravest act would be an atheist killing himself to save others.
Having said that, I am guessing here that the average atheist would be less likely to sacrifice himself for others precisely because that act would be braver for an atheist to do! -that, of course, doesn’t change the fact that when an atheist DOES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest kind of act of them all.
This asserts to me that you were implying that it is in fact correct. Show me were I'm twisting what you're saying here. Show me were I'm taking it out of context, and that I know it. If anyone is twisting anything here it is you. If you can't stand by such a bold statement then don't post it, plain and simple.
Did you think that only other atheists that are in close agreement with you were going to be the only ones to respond to such a post in a open forum for spirituality?
04 Nov 08
Originally posted by KingDavid403Fair enough, and I don't disagree that it should be honored. You seem to want bravery to refer to specific acts, and that's fine.
Yes. They still laid their life down for others to live on. Still the same act of bravery. Just killing two birds with one stone, so to speak.
And it should be honored as a act of bravery by those still living.
Now, let's talk about a person who is afraid of heights, and a person who is not. Let's have them both walk to the edge of the Grand Canyon or some steep cliff in the Himalayas, and walk along the edge for half a mile.
One person did it with ease. The other person had to overcome a terrible fear, but managed to do it anyway. Was either act braver than the other? Did either act require more courage than the other?
04 Nov 08
3 edits
Originally posted by convectOvercoming a fear of heights, compared to giving up, or ending your life have nothing in common.
Fair enough, and I don't disagree that it should be honored. You seem to want bravery to refer to specific acts, and that's fine.
Now, let's talk about a person who is afraid of heights, and a person who is not. Let's have them both walk to the edge of the Grand Canyon or some steep cliff in the Himalayas, and walk along the edge for half a mile.
One ...[text shortened]... Was either act braver than the other? Did either act require more courage than the other?
Now, let's talk about a person who is afraid of heights, and a person who is not. Let's have them both walk to the edge of the Grand Canyon or some steep cliff in the Himalayas, and walk along the edge for half a mile.
One person did it with ease. The other person had to overcome a terrible fear, but managed to do it anyway. Was either act braver than the other? Did either act require more courage than the other?
I use to work construction, I joined the union when I just turned 15.
I had a semi fear of heights, especially really high heights. We use to get up to 10, 20 even 30 story's working on beams, etc.
The older guys were dancing around doing jigs on the beams and they use to laugh at us newer guys. I and some other newer guys were hanging on for dear life, sitting and hanging onto that beam like it was a bucking bronco making sure not to let go, using all the safety gear possible.
So my question to you would be, who was braver?? I or those older guys dancing around with no safety equipment ? Was I to be looked upon as braver just because I had more fear???
04 Nov 08
3 edits
Originally posted by KingDavid403…This asserts to me that you were implying that it is in fact correct...…[/b]
[b] You are clearly making out here that I was saying that that assertion is in fact correct.
-will you stop twisting everything I say. You have taken this out of context and you know it!
I obviously was NOT saying nor implying that that assertion was in fact correct!
Here's your original post Andrew,
So, if a typical theist perfor were going to be the only ones to respond to such a post in a open forum for spirituality?
I assume you are referring to the last part of the second paragraph i.e. :
“ thus the bravest acts are atheistic because the bravest act would be an atheist killing himself to save others.”
Obviously I was talking generally and only about averages, thus the above statement above clearly does NOT imply that the bravest act of all time was done by an atheist.
Obviously every case is different and every person is different so it is obviously impossible to know who has done the “bravest” act of all time.
04 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by KingDavid403…The word “SHOULDN’T” is the operative word here -regardless of whether or not they “SHOULDN’T” fear death, just like atheists, they DO generally fear death....…[/b]
[b]a theist that believes in an afterlife wouldn’t actually believe that he will really “die” because he would be comforted by the belief that he will go to some kind of afterlife. And, the stronger his faith in the afterlife, the less brave his act of self sacrifice would be because he would have less to fear in his mind. And, he may even believe he wo ...[text shortened]... of whether or not they “SHOULDN’T” fear death, just like atheists, they DO generally fear death.
Correct -and my statement clearly does NOT imply that theists generally do not fear death but rather it implies that, for those theists that are comforted by a belief in the afterlife, they will generally fear “death” LESS so (but would generally still fear it of course) -would you deny this?
04 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonObviously I was talking generally and only about averages
…This asserts to me that you were implying that it is in fact correct...…
I assume you are referring to the last part of the second paragraph i.e. :
“ thus the bravest acts are atheistic because the bravest act would be an atheist killing himself to save others.”
Obviously I was talking generally and only about averages, thus the above ...[text shortened]... n is different so it is obviously impossible to know who has done the “bravest” act of all time.[/b]
There's nothing Obvious to me that you were talking generally or about averages, But thanks for letting me know your true intentions.
thus the above statement above clearly does NOT imply that the bravest act of all time was done by an atheist.
Ok then, here's the last sentence in your original post
doesn’t change the fact that when an atheist DOES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest kind of act of them all.
Looks clearly to me that you WERE implying that the bravest act of all time is done by a atheist and is atheistic.
Andy, Let's say you have two people right now. And their both in the military.
One's a brave military person, and one's a coward in the military.
A general comes along and orders them both to go to the front line and give their life for others and their country.
The brave person marches right to the front line not showing any fear and sacrifices his or her life for their country and others.
The coward is terrified, shaking in his boots trying to look for anyway out of giving up his life. But he finally overcomes the fear or conquers the fear and does the same thing.
Who was the bravest???
The bravest was the brave person who marched right to the front and gave up their life for others.
Who did the bravest act??? They both did the same brave act. And should be honored as such. Not one above the other.
04 Nov 08
Originally posted by KingDavid403I would certainly say it took more courage for you to do it than for someone who had no fear. Courage is facing and overcoming one's own fear. If there's no fear, there's no courage.
Overcoming a fear of heights, compared to giving up, or ending your life have nothing in common.
[b]Now, let's talk about a person who is afraid of heights, and a person who is not. Let's have them both walk to the edge of the Grand Canyon or some steep cliff in the Himalayas, and walk along the edge for half a mile.
One person did it with ease. ...[text shortened]... ith no safety equipment ? Was I to be looked upon as braver just because I had more fear???
04 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by convectI disagree.
I would certainly say it took more courage for you to do it than for someone who had no fear. Courage is facing and overcoming one's own fear. If there's no fear, there's no courage.
Those guys that were dancing and twirling around 20 story's up had way more courage and were way braver than I. And I didn't care at the time. I was still hanging on for dear life.
By the way, They also got way more work done than I and the other newer guys due to their courage and bravery. And they were more valued by the foreman's and bosses for that reason.
I found out later that most those older guys were just like me and the other newer guys when they first started also. They had just mastered their fear of those heights already. Which took courage.
04 Nov 08
Originally posted by KingDavid403…Ok then, here's the last sentence in your original post
[b]Obviously I was talking generally and only about averages
There's nothing Obvious to me that you were talking generally or about averages, But thanks for letting me know your true intentions.
thus the above statement above clearly does NOT imply that the bravest act of all time was done by an atheist.
Ok then, here's the la ...[text shortened]... They both did the same brave act. And should be honored as such. Not one above the other.[/b]
doesn’t change the fact that when an atheist DOES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest kind of act of them all.
Looks clearly to me that you WERE implying that the bravest act of all time is done by AN atheist and is atheistic.
...… (my emphasis -and spelling mistake corrected)
Which particular “AN atheist” am I referring to by the statement: “doesn’t change the fact that when an atheist DOES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest kind of act of them all. ” ?
-answer -none. Thus it is obvious that I was speaking generally here.
…The coward is terrified, shaking in his boots trying to look for anyway out of giving up his life. But he finally overcomes the fear or conquers the fear and does the same thing.
Who was the bravest???
….
I would agree that a coward is “not brave” by definition -but I am not talking about whether or not the PERSON was the bravest but rather whether or not a particular ACTION that was performed by a person was the bravest and that’s why I called this thread “The bravest ACTS are atheistic” and NOT “The bravest People are atheistic” -think about this! -the two things are completely different!
In the end and only as the last act in this story of yours -the coward’s ACTION (and NOT the coward himself who is “not brave“ by definition) was the bravest -even if all his other acts in the past where cowardly -because, in that final act, he had the greater fear to overcome.
For the same, it is a relatively brave ACT for somebody to pick up a spider if he fears spiders but not even slightly brave ACT for me to pick up a spider because I don’t fear spiders -and this is true regardless of who is generally the coward or “hero” here.
04 Nov 08
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonAnd this post Andrew,
[b]…Ok then, here's the last sentence in your original post
doesn’t change the fact that when an atheist DOES sacrifice himself for others then it is the bravest kind of act of them all.
Looks clearly to me that you WERE implying that the bravest act of all time is done by AN atheist and is atheistic.
...… (my emphasis -and spelling mis ...[text shortened]... don’t fear spiders -and this is true regardless of who is generally the coward or “hero” here.[/b]
is proof, that you're going to twist words to dispel whatever truths are told you, back into the lie that somehow the same brave act done by two people is the bravest act for the atheist.
You need to wake up and smell the coffee and face reality.
I'm done here. I'm playing chess.
Good luck with your brave atheism.😴
07 Nov 08
1 edit
I don't believe that everyone who makes the decision to trust Jesus Christ is preoccupied with the what is called "afterlife".
I see much usage of the word life in the Bible. I never see one instance of the word "afterlife".
I also see the term resurrection. But I don't think everyone who decides to believe Christ is the Son of God is preoccupied with thoughts about their own resurrection. At least not at first.
Before discussing the possible motives of an atheist laying down his or her physical life for someone else, it would be helpful to have some real life specific examples.
07 Nov 08
Originally posted by KingDavid403There's nothing courageous about doing something you're not afraid to do.
I disagree.
Those guys that were dancing and twirling around 20 story's up had way more courage and were way braver than I. And I didn't care at the time. I was still hanging on for dear life.
By the way, They also got way more work done than I and the other newer guys due to their courage and bravery. And they were more valued by the foreman's ...[text shortened]... arted also. They had just mastered their fear of those heights already. Which took courage.
Facing and overcoming a fear--that's courage.
Your fellow workers were courageous in overcoming their fear of heights. But dancing and twirling when you're not afraid? No courage required.