1. Standard memberRJHinds
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    07 Jan '12 16:40
    The following is Isaiah's prediction from God of the destruction of Babylon:

    And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride,
    Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
    It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation;
    Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there,
    Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there.
    But desert creatures will lie down there,
    And their houses will be full of owls;
    Ostriches also will live there, and shaggy goats will frolic there.
    Hyenas will howl in their fortified towers
    And jackals in their luxurious palaces.
    Her fateful time also will soon come
    And her days will not be prolonged.

    Isaiah 13:19-22 NASB

    I think all man has to do to prove God is a liar is to rebuild Babylon
    in Iraq with homes and let it become an inhabited city again.
    Saddam Hussein said he was going to do this and tried.
    This seems like an easy task for man to do. Don't you agree?
  2. Joined
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    07 Jan '12 17:302 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The following is Isaiah's prediction from God of the destruction of Babylon:

    And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride,
    Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
    It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation;
    Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there,
    Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie ...[text shortened]... was going to do this and tried.
    This seems like an easy task for man to do. Don't you agree?
    edit: Prove God a liar?

    If anything, the objective seems to prove the opposite.

    "US forces under the command of General James T. Conway of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force were criticized for building the military base "Camp Alpha", comprising among other facilities a helipad, on ancient Babylonian ruins following the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
    edit: photo caption: US Marines in front of the rebuilt ruins of Babylon, 2003

    US forces have occupied the site for some time and have caused irreparable damage to the archaeological record. In a report of the British Museum's Near East department, Dr. John Curtis describes how parts of the archaeological site were levelled to create a landing area for helicopters, and parking lots for heavy vehicles. Curtis wrote that the occupation forces

    "caused substantial damage to the Ishtar Gate, one of the most famous monuments from antiquity [...] US military vehicles crushed 2,600-year-old brick pavements, archaeological fragments were scattered across the site, more than 12 trenches were driven into ancient deposits and military earth-moving projects contaminated the site for future generations of scientists [...] Add to all that the damage caused to nine of the moulded brick figures of dragons in the Ishtar Gate by soldiers trying to remove the bricks from the wall."

    A US Military spokesman claimed that engineering operations were discussed with the "head of the Babylon museum".[44]

    The head of the Iraqi State Board for Heritage and Antiquities, Donny George, said that the "mess will take decades to sort out".[45] In April 2006, Colonel John Coleman, former Chief of Staff for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, offered to issue an apology for the damage done by military personnel under his command. However he claimed that the US presence had deterred far greater damage from other looters.[46]"

    Wikipedia on Bablylon
  3. Standard memberRJHinds
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    07 Jan '12 19:09
    Originally posted by JS357
    edit: Prove God a liar?

    If anything, the objective seems to prove the opposite.

    "US forces under the command of General James T. Conway of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force were criticized for building the military base "Camp Alpha", comprising among other facilities a helipad, on ancient Babylonian ruins following the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
    edit: phot ...[text shortened]... nce had deterred far greater damage from other looters.[46]"

    Wikipedia on Bablylon
    I was not aware of this. But are you saying Babylon has been rebuilt with
    homes for the Arabs to inhabit it again proving the Biblical prophecy false
    and God a liar?
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    07 Jan '12 19:23
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I was not aware of this. But are you saying Babylon has been rebuilt with
    homes for the Arabs to inhabit it again proving the Biblical prophecy false
    and God a liar?
    No. If anything the US operations there will make repopulating Babylon harder.
  5. Standard memberfinnegan
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    07 Jan '12 20:10
    Are the houses filled with owls then? They ought to be filled with owls.
  6. Joined
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    07 Jan '12 20:34
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The following is Isaiah's prediction from God of the destruction of Babylon:

    And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride,
    Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
    It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation;
    Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there,
    Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie ...[text shortened]... was going to do this and tried.
    This seems like an easy task for man to do. Don't you agree?
    This is (like the rest of the bible) so vague and open to interpretation that there is no way that
    you or any other theist is going to accept the continued existence of a city on the site of the
    ancient ruins of Babylon (and this would require destroying the ruins of an ancient city which we
    try not to do these days) as proof that your religion is wrong.

    Also the number of Christians who take the bible literally is massively in the minority.

    So try for something that would have a clear and indisputable outcome and the YOU personally
    would consider proof that your religion was wrong.
    Try to think of some test or tests that could be done that if the result was negative it would
    disprove your religion and would cause you to stop believing in your god.

    Biblical prophecy's are so vague that nobody is ever going to agree that one has or has not been
    fulfilled.
    The whole Jewish/Christian split is because people can't agree on biblical prophecy.
  7. Joined
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    07 Jan '12 23:28
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The following is Isaiah's prediction from God of the destruction of Babylon:

    And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride,
    Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
    It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation;
    Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there,
    Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie ...[text shortened]... was going to do this and tried.
    This seems like an easy task for man to do. Don't you agree?
    already done my good chap. a similar "prophecy" was made about tyre (ezekiel 26). that it shall become a barren rock and no city shall be built upon it and even promised to sink it into the sea.

    that didn't happen and there are inhabitants and a city in tyre today.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

    quiet a nice place actually. not barren or desolate at all.
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    08 Jan '12 12:45
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I think all man has to do to prove God is a liar is to rebuild Babylon
    in Iraq with homes and let it become an inhabited city again.
    Saddam Hussein said he was going to do this and tried.
    This seems like an easy task for man to do. Don't you agree?
    All it would take is for one Arab to pitch his tent there. But you avoided that, knowing it was too easy. You will equally move the goal posts if the city did become inhabited again. In fact, further down the thread you do move the goal posts and start putting in conditions such as the inhabitants being Arab (not part of the prophesy).
  9. Account suspended
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    08 Jan '12 13:484 edits
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    already done my good chap. a similar "prophecy" was made about tyre (ezekiel 26). that it shall become a barren rock and no city shall be built upon it and even promised to sink it into the sea.

    that didn't happen and there are inhabitants and a city in tyre today.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

    quiet a nice place actually. not barren or desolate at all.
    its a pity that you FAILED to mention that the ancient city of Tyre had two parts, a
    mainland and an island, but i guess your refutation of the Prophecy only pertains to the
    mainland, which at the time of prophesying, was a barren waste, meaning that it was
    with reference to the island that the prophets, Zecharia and Ezekiel prophesied. Now
    where is this Island today, do tell?
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    08 Jan '12 17:26
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    its a pity that you FAILED to mention that the ancient city of Tyre had two parts, a
    mainland and an island, but i guess your refutation of the Prophecy only pertains to the
    mainland, which at the time of prophesying, was a barren waste, meaning that it was
    with reference to the island that the prophets, Zecharia and Ezekiel prophesied. Now
    where is this Island today, do tell?
    i didn't feel the need to mention it because the present day city of tyre covers a large part of the original island.

    please do some research before embarrassing yourself.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    08 Jan '12 19:34
    Originally posted by googlefudge

    Try to think of some test or tests that could be done that if the result was negative it would
    disprove your religion and would cause you to stop believing in your god.
    For Christians of faith, this is impossible. I would submit that if Christians are turned away from their faith by anything worldly, then their Christianity was not true to begin with.

    I cannot think of a single thing that could possibly disprove my religion, or cause me to stop believing in God. The very idea is nonsensical to me.
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    08 Jan '12 19:36
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The following is Isaiah's prediction from God of the destruction of Babylon:

    And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride,
    Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
    It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation;
    Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there,
    Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie ...[text shortened]... was going to do this and tried.
    This seems like an easy task for man to do. Don't you agree?
    And RJH, please stop it. Don't waste your time.

    No amount of Bible quoting is going to convince atheists. Period.
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    08 Jan '12 19:57
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    For Christians of faith, this is impossible. I would submit that if Christians are turned away from their faith by anything worldly, then their Christianity was not true to begin with.

    I cannot think of a single thing that could possibly disprove my religion, or cause me to stop believing in God. The very idea is nonsensical to me.
    Well there are different types of Christians and different ways believers think so there are people
    out there who you would not (apparently) class as Christians but who call themselves such who
    do believe that it's reasonable to believe in god and there is evidence for it.

    Thus arguments of that type would be effective with such people.

    However with respect to your version of Christianity I am well aware of the fact that you wouldn't
    accept any test as disproof of your god.

    Which is kind of my point, I don't think there is any test that could dissuade RJHinds from being a
    Christian either.
    Which would prove (if I am right about this) that RJHinds believes entirely on faith because no amount
    of evidence would shift his position.

    At which point I then go back to my arguments on believing anything on faith.

    My point is that it's disingenuous of RJHinds to talk about proof and evidence because I don't think
    that is why he believes in god.
    If you talk about tests for your faith when you have no intention of abiding by any result that goes
    against you you are being hypocritical and disingenuous.
    This is what I am trying to find out about RJHinds.

    If he really does believe because he thinks there is evidence, then it's worth debating the evidence.
    If he believes based on faith, and doesn't care about the evidence, then it isn't.
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    08 Jan '12 20:00
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    And RJH, please stop it. Don't waste your time.

    No amount of Bible quoting is going to convince atheists. Period.
    On this you are wholly and completely correct.

    Unless you can prove the existence of god and that the bible is his word then the bible is
    utterly useless as evidence.

    Talk about biblical prophecies is equally pointless and for the same reasons.

    I have said this to RJHinds before but apparently he didn't believe me.
    Maybe he will believe you as a fellow Christian....
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    08 Jan '12 20:25
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    On this you are wholly and completely correct.

    Unless you can prove the existence of god and that the bible is his word then the bible is
    utterly useless as evidence.

    Talk about biblical prophecies is equally pointless and for the same reasons.

    I have said this to RJHinds before but apparently he didn't believe me.
    Maybe he will believe you as a fellow Christian....
    No, I'm well aware of this.

    But what does seem more effective at swaying atheists seems to be one's personal testimony of how believing in Christ as their personal Savior and Redeemer has changed their lives. To speak of the Bible is fairly ridiculous among atheists, I have personal experience to back this up. But to approach the problem more from a humanistic viewpoint does seem to more often relate to atheists, I find. To be sure, the conversion rate is dismal, but every soul saved is priceless.
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