@kellyjay said"You may go left or right. I forbid you to go left. (Sotto voce: I'm not going to tell you what I will do to your descendants if you go left.)"
Yes, He could have, but then why not? If only through a reality where choices have very real and permanent consequences could the truth about love and hate ever be understood. If He set up the universe where everyone was forced to obey, love could never be real, if in the universe where the threat of punishment was immediate and complete would love be real or just done to a ...[text shortened]... pen to us, but not because we caused them, which is not true if we are acting out of hate and greed.
I don't call that giving someone freewill. I call that setting a diabolical snare.
If someone forbids you to know penguins, penguins must already exist in order for you to be forbidden to know them. If someone forbids you to know evil, evil must already exist in order for you to be forbidden to know it. So, who put a metaphorical tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the metaphorical Garden, that Adam might be forbidden to know it? And who put a metaphorical snake in the metaphorical Garden? There you have the One was was first led into temptation, the One who first did not-good, the One who created evil and then forbade someone else to know what He had wrought.
@kellyjay saidDo you really believe that there was a literal talking snake and a literal piece of fruit off of a literal tree of knowledge…with roots and leaves ?
Yes, He could have, but then why not? If only through a reality where choices have very real and permanent consequences could the truth about love and hate ever be understood.
Really?
@kellyjay saidWhat beginning?
You see, you still use words like progress, cooperation, and working together as if mindlessness could produce those things. You even throw in things like stealing as if that is something that is quantifiable in a mindless world where from the beginning as you believe it to be there was no mind at work.
@moonbus saidI don't believe the tree was metaphorical, but even if it was the lesson learned was when we doubt and go against the goodness of God the result that follows is death as we put our faith in ourselves alone. We see in our current world as people are doing what they want when they want, the results of that type of life also brings about death and destruction. Had they simply done what was asked of them none of these bad things would have occurred, the whole of creation was theirs to rule as they saw fit without the plague of selfishness and sinful desires, real-world consequences for real-world choices.
"You may go left or right. I forbid you to go left. (Sotto voce: I'm not going to tell you what I will do to your descendants if you go left.)"
I don't call that giving someone freewill. I call that setting a diabolical snare.
If someone forbids you to know penguins, penguins must already exist in order for you to be forbidden to know them. If someone forbids you to k ...[text shortened]... not-good, the One who created evil and then forbade someone else to know what He had wrought.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe one where everything started, put any date on you want, endless doesn't stand up to all logic when applied to a universe where everything is winding down to equilibrium.
What beginning?
@kellyjay saidThe universe has always existed, in one form or another, an endless series of big bangs and big crunches.
The one where everything started, put any date on you want, endless doesn't stand up to all logic when applied to a universe where everything is winding down to equilibrium.
Catch up.
@moonbus saidEvil wasn’t involved with or in humanity until Adam and Eve decided that what they wanted was something God said stay away from with a warning. They didn’t have to deal with it until they desired the one and only thing God said no to.
"You may go left or right. I forbid you to go left. (Sotto voce: I'm not going to tell you what I will do to your descendants if you go left.)"
I don't call that giving someone freewill. I call that setting a diabolical snare.
If someone forbids you to know penguins, penguins must already exist in order for you to be forbidden to know them. If someone forbids you to k ...[text shortened]... not-good, the One who created evil and then forbade someone else to know what He had wrought.
The universe was an wide open for them to do what they wanted being innocent all they had to do was gardening enjoying the company of a naked member of the opposite sex. With everything but one thing was open to them, they still managed to screw that up. (This is in the link)
Evil is the abuse of that which is good, the greater the good the greater the evil. You may deny evil and good but even doing that doesn’t shield you from either or the consequences of either.
@kellyjay saidSo let’s think this through then …
I don't believe the tree was metaphorical
You’re saying there was a literal tree with roots and leaves drawing sustenance from the earth’s soil, before death had entered to enrich the soil and before rain had fallen to water it. And this tree bore a literal fruit which could literally kill you and your soul … and which of course is now extinct, because as there was only one it would have had to self-seed.
And you truly believe that it was a literal tree?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidProve it
The universe has always existed, in one form or another, an endless series of big bangs and big crunches.
Catch up.
A lot of information to go over.
Adam - I think he knew what they were approaching. It was at heart and center in their life, and in question of their identity. They did not have human parents like everyone afterwards so what it was like cannot be related to fully.
Now individually people come to this tipping point: Where one knows this is precipitating against the code, when too much freedom can mean not knowing what to do with it. So I can't say I'd act better than Adam did, when as a fully grown person I know I'd go fall into temptation too.
Maybe that wasn't the very least thing (as it was symbolically at the middle of the garden). At the least, it was a morally Grey area they went into. Are we to consider they could've tempted of their own action, since they probably had all the experience with the other fruits? So one seems it can be believed they were responsible, Adam in principal for lessening his guard, and Eve who followed into the morally Grey area.
Not to diminish the role of the infiltrating evil though. God gave proportionate curses to each creature. To be "like gods", evil merely suggested as much, not knowing the goodness of the Higher Being. The mistake then was to forsake our standing. Man was already at the highest place. The serpent had been an accompaniment with Adam before woman existed, so its inclusion could remain for posterity as a lesson. What I wanted to compare is the transhumanist idea of today...
No one likes to be tested. This was only a test from God's perspective, as man wouldn't have known it was a test. Not until Moses or the authors would reflect on to learn from this story passage.
The other thing I'd say is, those are thoughts of Lord God interpreted thru fallen men, albeit inspired. God was saying in effect, there's a wider world out there, and if we really wanted to risk faith he wasn't going to dissuade us from going there.
@of-ants-and-imps saidTake this as my thoughts on the subject, not a criticism of what you said or an acknowledgment of the same.
A lot of information to go over.
Adam - I think he knew what they were approaching. It was at heart and center in their life, and in question of their identity. They did not have human parents like everyone afterwards so what it was like cannot be related to fully.
Now individually people come to this tipping point: Where one knows this is precipitating against ...[text shortened]... ld out there, and if we really wanted to risk faith he wasn't going to dissuade us from going there.
God created a universe where true love is possible, authentic love, love of a godly kind where the one loved is the one the lover is most concerned about more so than themselves.
This also means we see the exact opposite where the one rejecting love in the most authentic way we see the evil that can be seen and the total depravity of it.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidGod set up the universe so it will always be a matter of faith, hold out for proof you will never find Him.
Right after you prove there is a God.