Spirituality
08 Feb 15
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08 Feb 15
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Originally posted by RJHindsI watched until 7:22 of the 10 minute video.
The Gap Theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD6cM08CGUU
One presentation, that's all.
Just one presentation with which I would give cautionary notes.
So to that extent a Strawman Argument.
So you set up a good strawman argument and your next video shoots down the strawman ?
09 Feb 15
Originally posted by sonshipI am not trying to construct a strawman. That is just an example of the imaginative interpretations that is part of the Gap theory. If you disagree a little here or there, I don't believe that makes much difference in presenting the general idea of the Gap theory to create an imaginary gap to put millions of years of past history to accomodate the false science of geological time.
I watched until 7:22 of the 10 minute video.
One presentation, that's all.
Just one presentation with which I would give cautionary notes.
So to that extent a Strawman Argument.
So you set up a good strawman argument and your next video shoots down the strawman ?
09 Feb 15
Ron, this information may be of interest: Thread 162638
"Kelly, here are a few paragraphs from a recent thread which focus on Genesis 1:1 [Chaos Gap] Genesis 1:2. Hope it helps.
"Before time and the universe existed, the eternal triune God who has no beginning or end chose to create a large host of rational angelic creatures who would reside with Him. Colossians 1:16-17 (New American Standard Bible) 6 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." In the Book of Revelation 5:11b their number is described as "myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands."
In speaking to Job God confirmed that the angels preexisted creation: Job 38:4-7 (NASB) 4 "Where were you [Job] when I [God] laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars [angels] sang together And all the sons of God [the entire angelic creation] shouted for joy?" They "shouted for joy" when the universe, "the heavens and earth", were created: Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
This brief biblical account of the angelic creation in eternity past will be followed by biblical documentation of the many differences between angels and men. The one vital characteristic men and angels have in common is self determination.
(Page 3)
_____________________________________
"Joe, perhaps we'll be able to revisit this point of difference with respect to our understandings of the biblical account of creation once the topic sequence suggested in the original post is completed. The Bible records four distinct beginnings:
A) John 1:1 "In the beginning [which was not a true beginning since God is eternal, self-existent and has no beginning or end] was the Word [logos] and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." B) The creation or origination of the angels at some point in eternity past before the creation of the universe. C) Genesis 1:1 documents the creation of the heavens and earth [hashamsyim, in the plural meaning the universe which was created as the domain of the angels]. During this time Lucifer rebelled against God and enticed one third of the angelic host to follow him (as revealed in Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28 and Revelation 12). This prehistoric revolt took place on planet earth bringing utter chaos upon it. This planet was enshrouded in darkness without light or heat causing the earth's waters to freeze into an ice pack as part of God's judgment. Before the earth could be inhabited again the restoration recorded in Genesis 1:2 would be necessary. D) Fourth beginning, following this restoration, the creation of the human race. Next: Lucifer's trial, sentence, appeal and the role of human volition."
(Page 4) Thread 161838
09 Feb 15
4 edits
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYes I know about that thread. Here is a composite of my comments from that thread:
Ron, this information may be of interest: Thread 162638
"Kelly, here are a few paragraphs from a recent thread which focus on Genesis 1:1 [Chaos Gap] Genesis 1:2. Hope it helps.
"Before time and the universe existed, the eternal triune God who has no beginning or end chose to create a large host of rational angelic creatures who woul ...[text shortened]... trial, sentence, appeal and the role of human volition."
(Page 4) Thread 161838
Verse one is a general statement declaring when God created the physical heavens and the earth. Verse two begins providing some details of that creation. This beginning obviously does not include the spiritual heaven where God resides with His spirit creature that are sometimes referred to as angels (messengers). It is the spiritual world that is not fully revealed in Genesis 1, for the purpose of Genesis 1 was to reveal the physical world's beginning.
You can find different translation of this verse here:
http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-2.htm
While you are there on the biblehub, look up at the heading and click on "Interlinear" and then you will see the Hebrew written from right to left with a translation in English under each Hebrew word. You should notice that the first Hebrew word on the right consists of five letters and is translated in English as "And the Earth" and the first letter on the right of that Hebrew word looks something like a walking cane. That prefix letter is called a vav and is used as a copulative conjunction to connect words, sentences, or related ideas. But it does not always have to be translated as "and" as is shown in the KJV.
Now click on the left blue arrow beside Genesis 1:2. This will take you back to the interlinear of Genesis 1:1. Notice the three letter Hebrew word that is tranlated "and" there. It is the Hebrew word that begins on the right with the vav letter that looks like a walking cane. That three letter Hebrew word translated "and" is not in Genesis 1:2.
Do you get my point that just because the King James translator translated the vav as "and" instead of using a different conjunctive word, it does not mean that it is describing something in chronological order, but only that there is some relationship with something written before.
I just so happen to have a Septuagint verison of the Old Testament in Greek with an English translation. Here is the whole translation in English:
In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth. But the earth was unsightly and unfinished, and darkness was over the water. And the Spirit of God moved over the water.
Genesis 1:1-2
Notice that the earth is unfinished in the Greek Septuagint version.
We know that from Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:5 there was a one day period consisting of an evening and a morning, so the time from the beginning until the earth was formless, void, and dark under the cover of water was probably less than 12 hours of that day.
Lucifer, the Anointed Cherub, was part of the spiritual creation in the spiritual heaven. The iniquity that was found in Him probably refers to when he sinned by tempting Eve to disobey God. We are not told when he was created, but I would guess it was before the creation of the physical world because we are told that the angels witnessed the creation of the earth.
Genesis 1:2 just indicated that the earth was not finished and ready for habitation immediately, but light had to be made available and the land needed to appear out of the water that covered the earth. God allowed additional days for this to be completed before it could be considered a good creation.
It is the spiritual world that is not fully revealed in Genesis 1, for the purpose of Genesis 1 was to reveal the physical world's beginning.
The water was part of the creation process, since the Holy Bible reveals that the world in the beginning was made out of the water. But at the time of Noah's flood the water was used to temporarily destroy it, because some angels had left their former state and corrupted man on earth.
There was no need to destroy the physical earth in the beginning because at that time the angels, being good spirit creatures, inhabited the spiritual heaven.
I don't see any evidence that there was a rebellion of any angels before the creation of the earth and of Adam and Eve.
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
(Job 38:7 NIV)
The morning stars does not refer to the physical stars created on the fourth day. These are believed to be special spirit creatures, like Lucifer.
The creation of the earth was obviously welcomed by ALL the angels. Lucifer, a.k.a. Satan may not have been happy that man was given dominion over the earth instead of him, but that came later.
Satan was not kicked out of heaven before Adam or before Job because he was still able to come before God in heaven along with the other angels during the time of Job. So I am certainly not saying God disposed of Satan by throwing him into the Garden of Eden.
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."...
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."...
(Job 1:6-7; 2:1-3 NASB)
Yes, I do believe Satan deceived Eve before any of the other angels were deceived.
09 Feb 15
Originally posted by RJHinds"Satan was not kicked out of heaven before Adam..."
Yes I know about that thread. Here is a composite of my comments from that thread:
Verse one is a general statement declaring when God created the physical heavens and the earth. Verse two begins providing some details of that creation. This beginning obviously does not include the spiritual heaven where God resides with His spirit creature that are sometim ...[text shortened]... 7; 2:1-3 NASB)
Yes, I do believe Satan deceived Eve before any of the other angels were deceived.
Why then did God's plan require an order of creation lower than the angels, i.e. man?
09 Feb 15
Originally posted by RJHindsBut where are YOUR comments on the issue like you said? All you did was quote the bible. Those aren't YOUR comments, they are the comments of men long dead.
Yes I know about that thread. Here is a composite of my comments from that thread:
Verse one is a general statement declaring when God created the physical heavens and the earth. Verse two begins providing some details of that creation. This beginning obviously does not include the spiritual heaven where God resides with His spirit creature that are some ...[text shortened]... :1-3 NASB)
Yes, I do believe Satan deceived Eve before any of the other angels were deceived.
09 Feb 15
Originally posted by RJHinds"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Adam was on earth not in heaven.
Reguire? It was God's desire.
2 Timothy 2:15 I for one am still learning the Word of God taught from the original languages in which it was written. Before we continue: 1) Are you aware of the angelic warfare; and 2) Are you also still learning or are you here only to teach?
09 Feb 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI have read of human wars and rumors of wars and prophecies of angelic wars. Although I am still learning, I feel obliged to teach some of what I have learned. 😏
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
2 Timothy 2:15 I for one am still learning the Word of God taught from the original languages in which it was written. Before we continue: 1) Are you aware of the angelic warfare; and 2) Are you also still learning or are you here only to teach?
09 Feb 15
Originally posted by RJHindsThen would you be willing to objectively consider revisiting the prehistoric events which occurred between
I have read of human wars and rumors of wars and prophecies of angelic wars. Although I am still learning, I feel obliged to teach some of what I have learned. 😏
Genesis 1:1 and 1:2? If no, I respect your decision. If yes, let's examine these passages in detail.
1) Your understanding of precisely what is revealed in Genesis 1:1?
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09 Feb 15
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Lucifer, the Anointed Cherub, was part of the spiritual creation in the spiritual heaven. The iniquity that was found in Him [sic] probably refers to when he sinned by tempting Eve to disobey God. - RJHinds
This belief suggests that the first sin Lucifer committed was the tempting of Eve. So according to your view the fulfillment of God finding iniquity in the one created perfect in his ways was Genesis 3:1-5.
Ezekiel 28:15 says "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you."
And according to you that moment in which God found unrighteousness in the Anointed Cherub was when he committed the first act of unrighteousness in the history of existence, here -
"And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die! For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:4,5)
Here, RJHinds identifies the first act of unrighteousness from any created being from God AND the first victim of lying and deception.
1.) Where are the precious stones which form the covering or dwelling of the Anointed Cherub in Genesis 3?
2.) Where are the pipes and tambourines celebrating his royalty in Genesis 3?
3.) Where is his activity of "covering" any glory of God in Genesis 3?
4.) Where is any walking amidst the "stones of fire" in Genesis 3?
5.) Where is "the abundance of your trading" of any kind in Genesis 3?
6.) Where is his immense beauty in Genesis 3?
7.) Where for that matter are "the MULTITUDE of your iniquities" in Genesis 3 if we only have this record of ONE act of unrighteousness from him ?
8.) For what reason should we "LAMENT" his existence in Genesis 3? The section exposing Satan's origins begins as a lamentation as if he is still to be felt some sorrow for in his great fall -
"Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord Jehovah, O you who sealed up perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty." (Ezek. 28:12)
It is better to understand that for some space of time he still could have been considered a tragic figure for whom "lamentation" might conceivably been had by the other angels.
There is no tiniest HINT of sympathy for the serpent when God says to him -
"Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all the cattle and more than all the animals of the field ..." (Genesis 3:14a)
God goes directly to the judgment - "Because you have done THIS ..." as if he has climaxed a long history of sinning with an unforgivable offense.
Remember that God is longsuffering. God allows rebellion to ferment, ripen, be exposed with eventuality before coming in with irrevocable condemnation.
No Ron, I think it is better to see the iniquity of the serpent in Genesis three as the latter crime of a long previous history of crimes.
The word in Genesis 3 only mentions that he was more subtle. No word of his perfection of beauty or perfection in wisdom or high position or even having a throne (Isaiah 14:13) -
"I will exalt my throne. And I will sit upon the mount of assembly in the uttermost parts of the north."
Why would God give the serpent a "throne" at the same time He has just created man to bear His image and exercise His dominion (Genesis 1:26) ?
I don't think you can just gloss over such matters with another link to a YouTube Creation Science lecture.