The Holy Spirit is the key.....

I'm convinced that the way to argue against Rajk/ToOne and others like them is to invite them to discuss the Holy Spirit. They don't seem to want to go there.

Jesus clearly taught on the Holy Spirit and the future activity of the Spirit and how we would be guided by the Spirit. He also clearly implied that those in the kingdom would know Him and that the "world would not see Him or recognize Him".

Why do Rajk/ToOne et al refuse to discuss the Holy Spirit? Jesus obviously felt this was an important matter.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm convinced that the way to argue against Rajk/ToOne and others like them is to invite them to discuss the Holy Spirit. They don't seem to want to go there.

Jesus clearly taught on the Holy Spirit and the future activity of the Spirit and how we would be guided by the Spirit. He also clearly implied that those in the kingdom would know Him and t ...[text shortened]... et al refuse to discuss the Holy Spirit? Jesus obviously felt this was an important matter.

umm have you tried discussing the subject with them?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
umm have you tried discussing the subject with them?

Yep

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm convinced that the way to argue against Rajk/ToOne and others like them is to invite them to discuss the Holy Spirit. They don't seem to want to go there.

Jesus clearly taught on the Holy Spirit and the future activity of the Spirit and how we would be guided by the Spirit. He also clearly implied that those in the kingdom would know Him and t ...[text shortened]... et al refuse to discuss the Holy Spirit? Jesus obviously felt this was an important matter.

I agree. But they are not the only ones who refuse to get into any deep discussions about it. I think they are confused as to what the Holy Spirit is and can't go there.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm convinced that the way to argue against Rajk/ToOne and others ..

You are mistaken. You cannot argue against me becuase there is nothing ot argue about. Simple reason is that all I do is quote the Bible where Christ or the Apostles said something in simple language and which contradicts what you say and believe.

Basically what happens is that I quote Christ and you quote your feelings, or what you think or what you would like to happen. I state facts an give references an you give opinions. Talking to you is a waste of my time in my opinion as you have nothing really to offer .

By all means state what you want about the Holy Spirit. Start off the discussion.

What you have done so far re Holy Spirit is to ask me what do I think the Holy Spirit is for. This is not a school where you are the teacher, sorry to tell you. If you want people to discuss you have to start off with something solid to talk about. Read the posts I have started and take some lessons in how I start my threads.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You are mistaken. You cannot argue against me becuase there is nothing ot argue about. Simple reason is that all I do is quote the Bible where Christ or the Apostles said something in simple language and which contradicts what you say and believe.

Basically what happens is that I quote Christ and you quote your feelings, or what you think or what you wou ...[text shortened]... id to talk about. Read the posts I have started and take some lessons in how I start my threads.

How about we discuss what Christ taught about the Holy Spirit? And how what he said implies further revelation of the truth via the Spirit.

You asked for something solid to discuss , surely the Holy Spirit of God is a fairly decent subject?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I'm convinced that the way to argue against Rajk/ToOne and others like them is to invite them to discuss the Holy Spirit. They don't seem to want to go there.

Its almost like trying to discuss the 'spirit' or 'soul' with any theist (yourself included).
Quite funny actually considering this is called the 'spirituality' forum.

Originally posted by knightmeister
How about we discuss what Christ taught about the Holy Spirit? And how what he said implies further revelation of the truth via the Spirit.

You asked for something solid to discuss , surely the Holy Spirit of God is a fairly decent subject?

Go right ahead .. discuss.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Go right ahead .. discuss.

Ok , Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit would be with His followers and guide them into all truth , yes? He also said that until He ascended the Spirit would not come.

If you agree with the above then you would expect to see things happening that were influenced by the Holy Spirit after Jesus went and further revelations of the truth.

Therefore I see no difficulties in Paul and the other apostles teachings because it is what Jesus predicted. It's clear that the Apostles teach salvation by grace through receiving the Holy Spirit in faith. The same Holy Spirit that was poured out on the Apostles at Pentecost.

Take a look at what Paul said about salvation via the Holy Spirit and notice that he does not avoid the issue of "doing what is good" - but deliberately places it after the process of trusting God for our salvation.

Titus 3 " At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. "

Originally posted by twhitehead
Its almost like trying to discuss the 'spirit' or 'soul' with any theist (yourself included).
Quite funny actually considering this is called the 'spirituality' forum.

I'll discuss the Spirit with you any time you like. Just don't expect the Spirit to exactly conform to some preset rigid scientific ideology you have.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit would be with His followers and guide them into all truth , yes? He also said that until He ascended the Spirit would not come.

If you agree with the above then you would expect to see things happening that were influenced by the Holy Spirit after Jesus went and further revelations of the truth.

Therefo ...[text shortened]... those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. "

One of the things Christians forget to remember when interpreting the Bible, is that there are times when Christ or Paul speaks to a specific set of people. For example Christ spoke a a group of disciples and sent them to preach and gave them instructions. Those instructions applied to them and them only. It does not apply to all disciples subsequently.

Those are therefore historical accounts and not instructions or guidelines for us today. Intelligent Bible readers can easily figure out what is history and what are timeless instructions applicable to all.

So is your point that you have the Holy Spirit and that what you say is the Truth ? Or that since you have the Holy Spirit you dont need to do good works ? Please be clear.

Originally posted by knightmeister
It's clear that the Apostles teach salvation by grace through receiving the Holy Spirit in faith. The same Holy Spirit that was poured out on the Apostles at Pentecost.

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:1-6

Speaking in tongues is one of the most ridiculous of Christian practices. My brother and I were pressured into doing it when we were kids. Naturally, I just made up whatever gibberish occurred to me, and my mother actually bought it. She was convinced I was speaking a holy language. She had made up her own gibberish and convinced herself it was a holy language as well.

My dad, to his credit, was never a part of this insanity, even though he was a Christian as well.

There were no 'tongues of fire' over our heads, nor any sound of rushing wind - just three people and a pitiful attempt to re-create a mythological story.

Our church was more cautious about allowing people to speak in tongues. They insisted that it was only allowable if someone could interpret. The policy actually didn't help very much: people still spoke in 'tongues', and then the pastor looked desperately around the room until someone relieved the pressure by offering an 'interpretation'. Who was going to question it? No one could understand the tongue-speaker anyway.

Again, to his credit, my dad ended up going to a different church where speaking in tongues was not allowed at all.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
[quote]And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Gho ...[text shortened]... ad ended up going to a different church where speaking in tongues was not allowed at all.

Do you believe everyone faked it?
Kelly

Originally posted by SwissGambit
[quote]And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Gho ...[text shortened]... ad ended up going to a different church where speaking in tongues was not allowed at all.

I have had very similar experiences. Lots of people I have spoken who to are perceptive and not easily fooled by unscrupulous pastors and church leaders have related the same story. Its all a sham.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
[quote]And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Gho ad ended up going to a different church where speaking in tongues was not allowed at all.

yes its obscene, this fact escapes the notice of those who perpetuate the scam, the
scriptures indicate that those who spoke in tongues spoke a specific language, not
some gibberish.

(Acts 2:8) . . .And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in
which we were born?