1. Joined
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    16 Apr '06 15:41
    Originally posted by Brother Edwin
    Does this verse suggest tha athesists who are good could get into heaven and/or are in a way christains?
    No........it suggests that when we die just as when we live, there are a multiplicity of heavans and hells we can create with our own minds and guilt......And are you really taking the bible seriously 😴
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    17 Apr '06 02:26
    Originally posted by dottewell
    The analogy doesn't work at all.

    What we stand accused of, I assume, is sinning; so why shouldn't being a good person be a good defence?

    What exactly am I "on trial" for?
    Scripture says that if you sin only one time, that makes you a sinner or transgressor against God's law. Just ask Adam and Eve. They were seemingly "good" people to, however, they transgressed and were cut off from a holy God.
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    17 Apr '06 11:32
    Originally posted by whodey
    Scripture says that if you sin only one time, that makes you a sinner or transgressor against God's law. Just ask Adam and Eve. They were seemingly "good" people to, however, they transgressed and were cut off from a holy God.
    That's precisely why, for the non-Christian, the analogy is absurd. I haven't murdered anyone. The "laws" of your God's court are ridiculous and the punishments ludicriously extreme. If this was Saudi Arabia, Amnesty International would be having a field day.
  4. Unknown Territories
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    17 Apr '06 11:521 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Scripture says that if you sin only one time, that makes you a sinner or transgressor against God's law. Just ask Adam and Eve. They were seemingly "good" people to, however, they transgressed and were cut off from a holy God.
    Not quite. We are all born condemned for Adam's one sin. In God's matchless grace, He preserves us physically alive and spiritually dead so that redemption is possible (we are qualified).

    We do not die spiritually because of our sin; we are born spiritually dead and therefore sin.

    No one ever dies spiritually for their personal sins, as they were all imputed to Jesus Christ on the cross. Breaking the Law did not (does not) bring spiritual death, nor does keeping Law bring spiritual life. In the spiritual life, God does all the work.
  5. Felicific Forest
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    17 Apr '06 20:44
    Originally posted by Brother Edwin
    You will find the verse here:
    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=41675
    Give me a link to the verse and the context you clown ....... 😉

    From the following site, if you please:

    http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm
  6. Standard memberorfeo
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    17 Apr '06 22:311 edit
    Originally posted by dottewell
    That's precisely why, for the non-Christian, the analogy is absurd. I haven't murdered anyone. The "laws" of your God's court are ridiculous and the punishments ludicriously extreme. If this was Saudi Arabia, Amnesty International would be having a field day.
    This is precisely why I am a Christian, not a Jew or a Muslim.
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    18 Apr '06 09:15
    Originally posted by orfeo
    This is precisely why I am a Christian, not a Jew or a Muslim.
    Because you like ludicrously extreme punishment?
  8. Standard memberorfeo
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    18 Apr '06 13:241 edit
    Originally posted by dottewell
    Because you like ludicrously extreme punishment?
    No. Because I prefer a religion that has an opportunity to escape the punishment! The standards of the other two are just as high but the whole point of Christianity is that a Christian is not ultimately subjected to the punishment the law requires.

    There's no doubt that any absolute law is tough. I must say, though, that any argument about it being 'ludicrous' and 'extreme' depends very much on having a 21st century perspective.

    I live in a country that was founded by people who were banished halfway around the world for stealing a loaf of bread or a handkerchief, and that was only around 200 years ago. The late 18th century would have considered us a bunch of wusses.

    The way things seem to be going, the late 21st century will ALSO consider us a bunch of wusses.

    I freely confess, I am one of those wusses. I am against the death penalty in human courts. But I fail to see why God, who is a perfect judge, shouldn't be able to dish out considerably harsher sentences than your average, fallible judge and jury who are capable of wrongful convictions.

    To return to your original post: you appear to be denying the correctness of the 'conviction' by saying that you can defend yourself as a 'good person'.

    You're welcome to try that defence. But if Satan in his role as prosecutor looked deep into your life and unearthed evidence that you thought was gone and buried, how long do you think that claim would stand up?

    I'd be willing to bet that by the end of the cross-examination you'd be wanting the ground to swallow you up. I'm pretty sure I would, and I'm also pretty sure that every single person who knows me would describe me as a 'good person'. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I regard myself as a 'good person' by worldly standards, but I know perfectly well that there is a lot of dirt hidden away.
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    18 Apr '06 13:38
    Originally posted by orfeo
    No. Because I prefer a religion that has an opportunity to escape the punishment! The standards of the other two are just as high but the whole point of Christianity is that a Christian is not ultimately subjected to the punishment the law requires.

    There's no doubt that any absolute law is tough. I must say, though, that any argument about it being 'ludi ...[text shortened]... tandards, but I know perfectly well that there is a lot of dirt hidden away.
    A good person isn't a perfect person. You probably are a good person, skeletons and all.

    I prefer a system that doesn't start from a position of presumed guilt.
  10. Standard memberorfeo
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    18 Apr '06 13:52
    Originally posted by dottewell
    A good person isn't a perfect person. You probably are a good person, skeletons and all.

    I prefer a system that doesn't start from a position of presumed guilt.
    There are laws in our own legal systems that require perfection, you know. It's called 'absolute liability'.

    Also, I don't know if you're familiar with the fact/law distinction. The system doesn't start from a position of presumed guilt as a matter of law. It's more a case of looking at the evidence and discovering that, as a matter of fact, all have sinned.
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    18 Apr '06 14:04
    Originally posted by orfeo
    There are laws in our own legal systems that require perfection, you know. It's called 'absolute liability'.

    Also, I don't know if you're familiar with the fact/law distinction. The system doesn't start from a position of presumed guilt as a matter of law. It's more a case of looking at the evidence and discovering that, as a matter of fact, all have sinned.
    I am familiar with that distinction but I was trying to get away from the courtroom analogy, which is not helpful.

    What I meant by "presumed guilt" was that the Christian view is that we are born into sin and no good we do will outweigh our sins when it comes to deciding our eternal fate. That, to my mind, in nonsense. There are plenty of good people in this world who do not believe in a Christian god. They make the world a better place than if they had never existed. For such people, eternal damnation is a cruel and unusual punishment indeed.
  12. Standard memberorfeo
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    18 Apr '06 14:071 edit
    Originally posted by dottewell
    I am familiar with that distinction but I was trying to get away from the courtroom analogy, which is not helpful.

    What I meant by "presumed guilt" was that the Christian view is that we are born into sin and no good we do will outweigh our sins when it comes to deciding our eternal fate. That, to my mind, in nonsense. There are plenty of good people in ...[text shortened]... ad never existed. For such people, eternal damnation is a cruel and unusual punishment indeed.
    Maybe the question shouldn't be whether they make the world a better place. Maybe it should be whether they would make heaven a better place.

    After all, isn't entry to heaven what we're talking about? Or do you see heaven as purely a reward for good work here on earth, with no intrinsic value system of its own?
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    18 Apr '06 14:09
    Originally posted by orfeo
    Maybe the question shouldn't be whether they make the world a better place. Maybe it should be whether they would make heaven a better place.

    After all, isn't entry to heaven what we're talking about? Or do you see heaven as purely a reward for good work here on earth, with no intrinsic value system of its own?
    Or hell a worse place?
  14. Standard memberorfeo
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    18 Apr '06 14:12
    Originally posted by dottewell
    Or hell a worse place?
    Explain. My first reaction is that a 'good person' couldn't possibly make hell a worse place.
  15. Standard memberHalitose
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    18 Apr '06 14:161 edit
    Originally posted by dottewell
    For such people, eternal damnation is a cruel and unusual punishment indeed.
    I think it was C.S. Lewis who said that eventually there will only be two types of people: those who say to God, "your will be done"; and those to whom God will say it.

    He continues to say that he firmly believes the gates of hell to be barred from the inside -- the lasting vestige to their own selfishness and sanctimony.

    I very much doubt hell to be the case of your good deeds weighed up against the bad (although it is normally a good reflection on the state of your soul) and if the scale tips the one way you get dragged off struggling and screaming to some painful torture chamber.

    Edit: Like trying to please Santa to get bigger and better presents at Christmas.
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