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    18 Apr '06 14:42
    Originally posted by orfeo
    Explain. My first reaction is that a 'good person' couldn't possibly make hell a worse place.
    If the value system of heaven is based on the morality we have on earth, then if no one is bad enough for hell why should they be good enough for heaven?
  2. Joined
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    18 Apr '06 14:42
    Originally posted by Halitose
    I think it was C.S. Lewis who said that eventually there will only be two types of people: those who say to God, "your will be done"; and those to whom God will say it.

    He continues to say that he firmly believes the gates of hell to be barred from the inside -- the lasting vestige to their own selfishness and sanctimony.

    I very much doubt hell to b ...[text shortened]... chamber.

    Edit: Like trying to please Santa to get bigger and better presents at Christmas.
    If "hell" is atheist humanism, I'll take it.
  3. London
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    18 Apr '06 14:43
    Originally posted by dottewell
    If "hell" is atheist humanism, I'll take it.
    According to many philosophers of religion, atheistic humanism can be classed as a religion.
  4. Unknown Territories
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    18 Apr '06 15:02
    Originally posted by dottewell
    A good person isn't a perfect person. You probably are a good person, skeletons and all.

    I prefer a system that doesn't start from a position of presumed guilt.
    "Presumed guilt" is not an accurate assessment. Condemned at birth is closer to the mark. Any other manner would not have worked.
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    18 Apr '06 15:30
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    "Presumed guilt" is not an accurate assessment. Condemned at birth is closer to the mark.
    That's a much more attractive proposition.
  6. Standard memberorfeo
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    18 Apr '06 16:35
    Originally posted by dottewell
    If the value system of heaven is based on the morality we have on earth, then if no one is bad enough for hell why should they be good enough for heaven?
    Ah. You see, my point was, I don't the value of system of heaven IS based on the morality we have on earth. It's more like earth's value system is a pale, distorted version of heaven's.

    That's why I have a problem with seeing heaven as some kind of reward for 'good people'. It's a rather earth-centric view. Whereas I think what really matters is whether you have a relationship with the owner of heaven.
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    18 Apr '06 20:18
    Originally posted by orfeo
    Ah. You see, my point was, I don't the value of system of heaven IS based on the morality we have on earth. It's more like earth's value system is a pale, distorted version of heaven's.

    That's why I have a problem with seeing heaven as some kind of reward for 'good people'. It's a rather earth-centric view. Whereas I think what really matters is whether you have a relationship with the owner of heaven.
    So from a God's-eye moral viewpoint, the actions of a Hitler or Stalin are insignificant? Hmm. He doesn't come across that way in the OT.
  8. Standard memberorfeo
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    18 Apr '06 22:071 edit
    Originally posted by dottewell
    So from a God's-eye moral viewpoint, the actions of a Hitler or Stalin are insignificant? Hmm. He doesn't come across that way in the OT.
    Insignificant? No. I don't think that God simply ignores what's going on.

    But in terms of getting to heaven then, yes, my Christian beliefs include the fact that I am in need of salvation just as much as Hitler or Stalin. It's a binary state - you either need saving or you don't need saving, it doesn't matter HOW far short you've fallen.

    I know that no1marauder finds this position deeply unpalatable, so he'll be along any minute now to rip me apart if you don't do it yourself...

    Can you give me examples of what you have in mind from the OT?
  9. Joined
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    19 Apr '06 07:24
    Originally posted by orfeo
    Insignificant? No. I don't think that God simply ignores what's going on.

    But in terms of getting to heaven then, yes, my Christian beliefs include the fact that I am in need of salvation just as much as Hitler or Stalin. It's a binary state - you either need saving or you don't need saving, it doesn't matter HOW far short you've fallen.

    I know that no1 ...[text shortened]... on't do it yourself...

    Can you give me examples of what you have in mind from the OT?
    The examples I was thinking of were those showing God acting in ways we can assess with our human ethics, and where there were supposed to be moral lessons. Virtually anything would do - Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt, Belshazzar's feast.

    I can't accept the binary state thing, for obvious reasons.
  10. Standard memberorfeo
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    19 Apr '06 22:17
    Originally posted by dottewell
    The examples I was thinking of were those showing God acting in ways we can assess with our human ethics, and where there were supposed to be moral lessons. Virtually anything would do - Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt, Belshazzar's feast.

    I can't accept the binary state thing, for obvious reasons.
    The New Testament also has similar examples - the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts chapter 5 would be a good one.

    The 'binary state' is simply a matter of logic - no different to either a woman is pregnant or she isn't. I take it what you don't accept is the notion that everybody is on the same side of the dividing line.
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