The indeterminate elect

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Vistesd, although I still don't believe that God can or will save men from eternal damnation who reject His Son, Jesus Christ, I must admit that my Calvinist views of the elect have been biblically unsound. I have unknowingly defended the Calvinist position up until now, and need desperately to amend my exegesis to more closely reflect the whole of scri ...[text shortened]... concern of God and Christ, and of their actions in order to save mankind from sin."

“The election has to do with selecting or predetermining holy characteristics, not individuals.”

I have only a few minutes. This statement is—as I guess you can imagine—greatly interesting to me! It goes far beyond my suggestion about election in another thread, but seems related to my thoughts about, say, the wheat and the tares. However, given my study about reading scripture on different (ever-deepening) levels—none of which are necessarily mutually exclusive—there may be multiple understandings here that are not necessarily in conflict, depending on which level you’re thinking.

Do you have a web address citations for this article? If not, I’m sure I can find it before I get back.

Be well.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]“The election has to do with selecting or predetermining holy characteristics, not individuals.”

I have only a few minutes. This statement is—as I guess you can imagine—greatly interesting to me! It goes far beyond my suggestion about election in another thread, but seems related to my thoughts about, say, the wheat and the tares. However, give ...[text shortened]... dress citations for this article? If not, I’m sure I can find it before I get back.

Be well.[/b]

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Biblical-Doctrine-of-Predestina.pdf

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]If they mature and overcome the flesh, the spirit springs forth.

Wrong.

"All, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God" (Romans 3:9-11).

So long as you consistently hold on to YOUR idea of what constitutes "belief", you'll never be able to se l evidence for your position. Please find some soon, because this is getting old.

[/b]
Perhaps you misunderstand. By "mature" I mean through repentance (overcoming flesh). How is this refuted by the verse you cite? What precludes man being born with both a 'sin nature' and the Holy Spirit? What preclude the 'sin nature' from being the stronger of the two and something to overcome.

Perhaps knowing God goes beyond scripture. Perhaps one also needs to use the Holy Spirit inside. Does this go against scripture?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Perhaps you misunderstand. By "mature" I mean through repentance (overcoming flesh). How is this refuted by the verse you cite?

Perhaps knowing God goes beyond scripture. Perhaps one also needs to understand what's in one's heart.[/b]

"Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:16-17).

The bottom line is, if you can't publicly, confidently, and unabashedly confess before men that Jesus Christ is Lord, then His Spirit is not in you. If His Spirit is not in you, then you are not a child of God: "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God" (Romans 8:14).

Jesus Christ is not a mere representation of some truth (love, compassion, justice, etc.), more than that, HE IS A PERSON. It essential to develop a relationship with Him based on love, loyalty and faith. In short, you must be on a first name basis with Him; one must know the Person, Jesus Christ.

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved" (Romans 10:9-10).

"And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God, but the one who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God" (Luke 12:8-9).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:16-17).

The bottom line is, if you can't publicly, confidently, and unabashedly confess before men that Jesus Christ is Lord, the one who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God" (Luke 12:8-9).

But love, compassion, justice, etc. are Lord. These ARE the Spirit of God. Jesus knows that "flesh and blood" are not Him. This Spirit is what is to be acknowledged and loved.

For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven

Perhaps you are so wrapped up in the details that you fail to see the themes.

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. John 10:16

Perhaps it is the "voice" of love, compassion, justice, etc. that is heard.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But love, compassion, justice, etc. are Lord. These ARE the Spirit of God. Jesus knows that "flesh and blood" are not Him. This Spirit is what is to be acknowledged and loved.

[b]For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven

Perhaps you are so wrapped up in the details that you fail to see the themes.

I ha ...[text shortened]... d. John 10:16

Perhaps it is the "voice" of love, compassion, justice, etc. that is heard.[/b]

I understand what you're saying. The Spirit is preeminent over the flesh. I agree. But the 'details' in God's word tell clearly that the Spirit glorifies only one Person, Jesus Christ:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already" (1 John 4:1-3). "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 6:12).

Because we are susceptible to counterfeit 'teachings that come from demons' (1 Timothy 4:1) and the devil who 'disguises himself as an angel of light' (2 Corinthians 11:14), we must confirm everything by the word of God. Consider this passage: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). Notice it doesn't say we are only to worship Him in spirit, but spirit and truth. Therefore, no matter how spiritual or wonderful something sounds, if it doesn't corroborate scripture, then it isn't from God's Spirit. "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:63, italics mine). "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).

Your conception of truth is something easily transferable to this or that, but the truth that is in Jesus Christ is found nowhere else except in him. "In him (Jesus) you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" (Ephesians 1:13-14). "And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us" (1 John 3:23-24, italics mine).

"I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own" (Phillipians 3:8-12).

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But love, compassion, justice, etc. are Lord. These ARE the Spirit of God. Jesus knows that "flesh and blood" are not Him. This Spirit is what is to be acknowledged and loved.

[b]For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven

Perhaps you are so wrapped up in the details that you fail to see the themes.

I ha ...[text shortened]... d. John 10:16

Perhaps it is the "voice" of love, compassion, justice, etc. that is heard.[/b]

Perhaps you are so wrapped up in the details that you fail to see the themes.

The reason I am so wrapped up in the details of God's word is because God's word is my only defense against error. "Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness. For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared. In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrows of the devil. Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:14-17).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Perhaps you are so wrapped up in the details that you fail to see the themes.

The reason I am so wrapped up in the details of God's word is because God's word is my only defense against error. "Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness. For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good N ...[text shortened]... met, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:14-17).[/b]

While the details are important, ultimately they only serve to gain greater understanding. An understanding of the ultimate reality or Truth. While the scriptures contain much, ultimately they do not contain all of Truth. The Holy Spirit can help bridge this gap. What is written in your heart can help bridge this gap.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
While the details are important, ultimately they only serve to gain greater understanding. An understanding of the ultimate reality or Truth. While the scriptures contain much, ultimately they do not contain all of Truth. The Holy Spirit can help bridge this gap. What is written in your heart can help bridge this gap.

True. Nevertheless, spiritual insights must always be tested against scripture. If what is gained is found to be in direct conflict with scripture, then it is to be rejected outright. The Bible is, after all, God's revealed will. Whatever is in conflict with his will is not from his Spirit, no matter how reasonable it may sound. If we are to be true, we must add nothing to scripture and take nothing away:

"Then Jesus answered them, ‘My teaching is not mine but his who sent me. Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own. Those who speak on their own seek their own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and there is nothing false in him" (John 7:16-18).

"So again Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. Very truly, I tell you, anyone who does not enter the sheepfold by the gate but climbs in by another way is a thief and a bandit" (John 10:7-9,1).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
True. Nevertheless, spiritual insights must always be tested against scripture. If what is gained is found to be in direct conflict with scripture, then it is to be rejected outright. The Bible is, after all, God's revealed will. Whatever is in conflict with his will is not from his Spirit, no matter how reasonable it may sound. If we are to heepfold by the gate but climbs in by another way is a thief and a bandit" (John 10:7-9,1).

Unfortunately it's common for one's personal biases to distort one's interpretation of the scripture. Just look at your original reason for starting this thread. It's apparent that from reading Kearley's article, you were able to overcome one of your biases. Had your heart been more open to the Holy Spirit, this would have been readily apparent to you.

If one comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc., has he not found his way to God?

The excerpts you posted from Kearley's article in your original post fully support the above. In fact, the verses you posted in your latest post fully support the above, if one comes to the realization that Jesus is the EMBODIMENT of love, compassion, justice, etc. Jesus pretty consistently points away from "Jesus the figure" as he does in John 7:16. He pretty consistently points away from "Jesus the person".

Consider the following paraphrase:
So again Jesus said to them, 'Very truly, ["love, compassion, justice, etc."] tell you, ["love, compassion, justice, etc." are] the gate for the sheep. Whoever enters by ["love, compassion, justice, etc."] will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.'

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Unfortunately it's common for one's personal biases to distort one's interpretation of the scripture. Just look at your original reason for starting this thread. It's apparent that from reading Kearley's article, you were able to overcome one of your biases. Had your heart been more open to the Holy Spirit, this would have been readily apparent to you.
...[text shortened]... justice, etc."] will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.'

Consider the following paraphrase:
So again Jesus said to them, 'Very truly, ["love, compassion, justice, etc."] tell you, ["love, compassion, justice, etc." are] the gate for the sheep. Whoever enters by ["love, compassion, justice, etc."] will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.'

Yes, I definitely have a lot to learn about life, God, Jesus, myself, love, faith, etc. No doubt. And I agree with what you're asserting, that the Spirit of God is love. Nevertheless, the love of God comes by no other name than Jesus Christ. Period. When you say things like, "Perhaps your knowledge of religions other than Christianity is so poor that you can't see how many of them are built on the same foundation", my error discernment alarms go off, and for good reason. The person, Jesus, is inextricable from ["love, compassion, justice, etc.]. In-freaking-extricable. I may have plenty to learn about God's Spirit, but you have a lot to learn about the essential divisiveness/holiness of Jesus Christ. He is irreplaceable. By no other name are we saved...

Peace.

Originally posted by Phuzudaka
If you have any historical documentation to support your view, please provide it. Historical documentation seems to support what the Bible says.

Reincarnation is not falsibiable and thus not provable, on the other hand, the ressurection of Christ was perfectly falsifiable, and thus has a huge weight of circumstantial evidence.

Please elucidate...The suspense is killing me...

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Consider the following paraphrase:
So again Jesus said to them, 'Very truly, ["love, compassion, justice, etc."] tell you, ["love, compassion, justice, etc." are] the gate for the sheep. Whoever enters by ["love, compassion, justice, etc."] will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.'

Yes, I definitely have a lot to learn abou ...[text shortened]... of Jesus Christ. He is irreplaceable. By no other name are we saved...

Peace.[/b]

God is ELOHIM. God is JEHOVAH. God is I AM. God is not a name. God is God.

God is love. Jesus is love. Jesus is God. Jesus is not a name. Ultimately Jesus is not a person. Before his incarnation, what was Jesus? After his crucifixion, what is Jesus? Jesus is Jesus.

I hope someday your heart will be opened by the Holy Spirit enough to be able to see the beauty in one who follows the will of God. One who comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc. no matter the name.

Nevertheless, spiritual insights must always be tested against scripture

What's the bedrock basis for this assertion? It's a statement made often in the 20th century by evangelicals, to be sure.

If we are to be true, we must add nothing to scripture and take nothing away

The verse to which your statement obliquely refers was written long, long before the New Testament. Doesn't that make the New Testament a spurious collection of add-ons?

Where does "scripture" begin and end? If prayerful insight on the part of a council yields that determination (e.g., the council of Rome, or that of Carthage), then isn't it also true that scripture must be tested against spiritual insight?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
God is ELOHIM. God is JEHOVAH. God is I AM. God is not a name. God is God.

God is love. Jesus is love. Jesus is God. Jesus is not a name. Ultimately Jesus is not a person. Before his incarnation, what was Jesus? After his crucifixion, what is Jesus? Jesus is Jesus.

I hope someday your heart will be opened by the Holy Spirit enough to be able to se ...[text shortened]... omes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc. no matter the name.

Ultimately Jesus is not a person.

Yes, he is. And a living person at that:

"I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave" (Revelation 1:18).

I hope someday your heart will be opened by the Holy Spirit enough to be able to see the beauty in one who follows the will of God. One who comes to repentance and lives a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc. no matter the name.

It doesn't matter how loving, compassionate and just a person is; if he or she doesn't believe in the crucified Jesus Christ, that person is not saved. There is quite simply no other way to be saved than through Jesus Christ, the man himself:

"Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

"Through faith in the name of Jesus, this man was healed—and you know how crippled he was before. Faith in Jesus’ name has healed him before your very eyes" (Acts 3:16).

"There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

"“But Lord,” exclaimed Ananias, “I’ve heard many people talk about the terrible things this man has done to the believers in Jerusalem! And he is authorized by the leading priests to arrest everyone who calls upon your name"" (Acts 9:13-14).

[Note: those who believed in Jesus weren't being persecuted for merely believing in love, compassion, justice, etc., they were persecuted specifically for their allegiance to Jesus Christ, the man. This holds true today.]

"Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,
he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
and gave him the name above all other names,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:6-11).

"Therefore, let us offer through Jesus a continual sacrifice of praise to God, proclaiming our allegiance to his name" (Hebrews 13:15).

"But it is no shame to suffer for being a Christian. Praise God for the privilege of being called by his name!" (1 Peter 4:16).