The Islamisation of Europe?

Originally posted by Halitose
Wouldn't poverty encourage fewer children rather than more in a modern European setting?

I wouldn't know, but historically poverty has lead to an increase in childbirth for whatever reasons. A guess would be that when our very physical existence is threatened, or somehow uncertain, we need to ensure that our genes are passed on to a new generation. The more children we have the more likely it is that at least some of them will survive the harsh reality we live in (plus, it's fun to procreate and the bigger the family the stronger their social status and the more likely you are to get good care when you grow old - that is, assuming the child survives the first ten or so years, which is a fact often overlooked as you're poor and procreating).

If on the other hand we feel perfectly safe and in control of our lives, we tend to think less of such things. We still want to pass on our genes to the next generation, but we are much more likely to consider things such as being able to provide for the child and give him/her a good childhood, rather than simply hoping the child will learn quickly how to survive and then leave it to do just that. Also, we will most likely pursue our own interests much more diligently if we don't have that black cloud of poverty hanging over our heads all the time; creating a constant worry about how to get food on the table and keep the right to a roof the upcoming month.

Muslims in Western countries will simply get richer and more culturally assimilated as time goes by. Their birth rates will decrease. The ones who move to the West and esp. their children won't want much to do with the strictures of Sharia Law in the main. Traditional "Christian" values won't make it back. All these things are basically positive.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Muslims in Western countries will simply get richer and more culturally assimilated as time goes by. Their birth rates will decrease. The ones who move to the West and esp. their children won't want much to do with the strictures of Sharia Law in the main. Traditional "Christian" values won't make it back. All these things are basically positive.

Well look who's steriotyping -- so muslims are poor folk, huh? Just kidding.

Seriously though, would you say the riches of Muslim families such as the Bin Ladin's or Saudi royal family has removed their adherence to the traditional Muslim creeds?

I'm no Muslim scholar, but by my understanding of it, they make no distinction between religious and secular life, meaning their culture is ingrained in their religion and is as much a part of it. If this be true, then your "assimilation" claim wouldn't stand.

Even if your claim was true, it has only succeeded in complicating rather than solving the dwindling European population dilemma.

Originally posted by Halitose
Well look who's steriotyping -- so muslims are poor folk, huh? Just kidding.

Seriously though, would you say the riches of Muslim families such as the Bin Ladin's or Saudi royal family has removed their adherence to the traditional Muslim creeds?

I'm no Muslim scholar, but by my understanding of it, they make no distinction between religious and secu ...[text shortened]... y succeeded in complicating rather than solving the dwindling European population dilemma.

If it was a democratic country and the muslims overtook the native population you can be sure that would be the end of the democracy.
It would be an Islamic government for sure, there would be no separation of church and state and I have no doubt if it came down to that there would be a civil war.

Originally posted by Halitose
Well look who's steriotyping -- so muslims are poor folk, huh? Just kidding.

Seriously though, would you say the riches of Muslim families such as the Bin Ladin's or Saudi royal family has removed their adherence to the traditional Muslim creeds?

I'm no Muslim scholar, but by my understanding of it, they make no distinction between religious and secu ...[text shortened]... y succeeded in complicating rather than solving the dwindling European population dilemma.

I made no universal claims. It's generally true that the wealthier people are the less religious they are and it's generally true that as a country gets richer it gets more secular. Both are true in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries which is why you see a Islamist Fundamentalist movement there, mirroring in ideology the Christian Fundamentalist movement here.

What "they" i.e. Muslims do is dependent on what millions of individual do. Contrary to your seeming assertion, there are Muslims who don't regard their religion as a centerpiece of their life. As they become more enmeshed in Western culture this trend will continue. And it will affect their children even more as they go to public schools. I've yet to see any instance in history where this assimilation process didn't take place to some degree.

I don't see what European dilemma you're referring to. People who live in Europe are Europeans; is it your claim that Muslims are less European than Christians or Jews?

Originally posted by sonhouse
If it was a democratic country and the muslims overtook the native population you can be sure that would be the end of the democracy.
It would be an Islamic government for sure, there would be no separation of church and state and I have no doubt if it came down to that there would be a civil war.

BS. There's Muslim democracies now (Turkey for instance). There's countries with a Muslim majority that are secular (Libya for instance). Must these bigoted stereotypes be paraded on these forums every single day?

Originally posted by no1marauder
I made no universal claims. It's generally true that the wealthier people are the less religious they are and it's generally true that as a country gets richer it gets more secular. Both are true in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries which is why you see a Islamist Fundamentalist movement there, mirroring in ideology the Christian Fundamentalist mov ...[text shortened]... are Europeans; is it your claim that Muslims are less European than Christians or Jews?

Fair enough.

I don't see what European dilemma you're referring to. People who live in Europe are Europeans; is it your claim that Muslims are less European than Christians or Jews?

Duh! Of course Europeans are people who live in Europe. The "Muslim" Europeans, having embraced liberal European culture, would also then have less kids, compounding the dwindling population -- that's what I meant by "dilemma". Or is a dwindling labour-force and growing old-timer population segment somehow good for a country's economy?

Originally posted by no1marauder
BS. There's Muslim democracies now (Turkey for instance). There's countries with a Muslim majority that are secular (Libya for instance). Must these bigoted stereotypes be paraded on these forums every single day?

I bet Turkey will cave in inside of ten years. What would be your conclusions then?
It came within a hairs breadth a few years ago.

This stuff is serious. The fascist right in Europe is increasingly waving this Islamic spectre and are gaining ground among working class voters.

The seeds of the next holocaust are being sown now.

Originally posted by Halitose
Fair enough.

[b]I don't see what European dilemma you're referring to. People who live in Europe are Europeans; is it your claim that Muslims are less European than Christians or Jews?

Duh! Of course Europeans are people who live in Europe. The "Muslim" Europeans, having embraced liberal European culture, would also then have less kids, compoundin ...[text shortened]... our-force and growing old-timer population segment somehow good for a country's economy?[/b]

If there are less people living in Europe in 50 or 100 years, I'm sure Europe will somehow muddle through. It's had less people living in it in the past and civilization didn't come crashing down. The article is hysterical bigotry tilting at a windmill.

Originally posted by Halitose
so muslims are poor folk, huh? Just kidding.

That enormously amusing joke aside, the answer is actually yes for most of the muslims. That is after all the reason most of them are moving here. To get jobs to be able to send money home to their relatives and families (or if they're lucky bring their relatives over here).

In time, they will adjust to the european social climate and way of doing things, since clearly it works much better for more people than the dictatorships they're used to (Libya is a good example and Turkey has shown a lot of promise these past few years).

In short, I'm not at all worried about the muslim invasion of Europe. What worries me much more is the uprising nazi-movement in Germany and Sweden beginning to gain ground again in certain circles. Now, there is a real threat to our well-being.

Edit: But of course, you weren't talking about our well-being, but of christian family values and the demise of the european culture. Right?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Western Civilisation will be replaced by hordes of prayer-mewling Allah-freaks for a variety of reasons. This is supposedly a Bad Thing.

You don't believe in Bad Things?

Originally posted by sonhouse
I bet Turkey will cave in inside of ten years. What would be your conclusions then?
It came within a hairs breadth a few years ago.

There are many experts now who believe that the US will cave in within the next 50 or so years, leaving China and India as the main powers of world politics. At the same time, I hear that Turkey might make it into the European Union within the next ten years (they would never be accepted unless they could be considered a truly democratic state protecting human rights and improving their relations with the rest of the world).

(Although, I suspect there will always be a "friendly" hostility between Iranian and Turkish folks in general.) 😉

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
They're remarkably similar to NP swart-gevaar propaganda ca. 1948. Or Yellow Peril rhetoric.

Let's suppose this clap-trap is all gospel--what aspects of "Western Civilisation" would you miss most?

General freedoms, I suppose - expression, association, religion...

Originally posted by Halitose
Essentially the argument revolves around several key points:

1. The traditionally "Western" European culture has become increasingly hedonistic and non-family friendly in its value system (e.g. abortion, casual sex, non-marriage/-family orientated relationships, etc).

2. This culture results in a reduction of the birthrate and an eventual decrease in ...[text shortened]... hink (4) is the weakest link in this petty chain of events, but by no means too far-fetched.

Certainly I would expect political change - but I don't expect Sharia to be law.

At least not for a couple of centuries.