The Islamisation of Europe?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I generally don't like the word "indoctrination" - all of us are influenced to a greater or lesser extent by our culture, our family, our friends etc.

Even the secular ones.

I use the word indoctrination to describe a process where a persons sense of self is almost completely removed and (s)he's turned into a robot more or less, not truly thinking for him/herself and/or expressing his/her true feelings. That is not the way we're taught to live in most public shool systems of the west these days. We're taught to be critical and to figure things out on our own as far as we can. I'd say that's the exact opposite of indoctrination.

But family ties can be a powerful thing. If you're feeling lonely, that's also a powerful emotion to use if I would want to indoctrinate you. There are, in fact, many contributing factors when a person allows him/herself to be indoctrinated. This is actually an interesting subject to me, but I feel like we're drifting (ever so slightly) away from the topic, so I'll shut up about it now.

Suffice it to say, that a mere influence can't change you profoundly to become something you're not. It takes years of pressure before you start to change. Indoctrination is something far more dangerous, the way I see it. Especially when it's allowed to take place from a young age.

Originally posted by Halitose
And you are not "stacking the cards" with your selective rebuttals and scathing insults?

I really don't care what you think, Hal. You cite a bigoted article wondering about the fate of Christian Europe with all these Muslims breeding like rabbits and expect it to be treated like it's right up there on an intellectual plane with Quantum Mechanics. LH is being his usual ignorant and arrogant self and the whole discussion from your and his side has the unpleasant stench of anti-Muslim bias and hatred.

Originally posted by stocken
Again, I have to disagree with you in part. It's true that Iran at the time was secular as in no religion in politics. But it was far from a westernised country. There was no democracy and people were extremely opressed. Under those conditions (education or not) it's easy to see how people can turn to the other extreme (as, of course, they did).

I've know ...[text shortened]... hey will be more inclined to spreading democracy and promoting religious and social freedom.

Surely democracy did exist at the local (if not national level) - after all, women did get the vote.

Your point about people turning to the other extreme brings up an interesting comparison - can you see a similarity in the perceptions of the Iranians and modern Islamist extremists?

Originally posted by stocken
I use the word indoctrination to describe a process where a persons sense of self is almost completely removed and (s)he's turned into a robot more or less, not truly thinking for him/herself and/or expressing his/her true feelings. That is not the way we're taught to live in most public shool systems of the west these days. We're taught to be critical and t ...[text shortened]... rous, the way I see it. Especially when it's allowed to take place from a young age.

Do you think there is no indoctrination in public schools?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Surely democracy did exist at the local (if not national level) - after all, women did get the vote.

Iran is a democracy today as well. It's just that the chief mullah decides the candidates. I honestly don't know much about the rule of Shah, but I'm sure his sense "democracy" was quite similar.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
can you see a similarity [to opposite extremes] in the perceptions of the Iranians and modern Islamist extremists?

I can. And I'm hoping that the youth of Iran today will be more capable of chosing their new leaders (should a new revolution actually take place before the US decides to invade for real).

Originally posted by stocken
I can. And I'm hoping that the youth of Iran today will be more capable of chosing their new leaders (should a new revolution actually take place before the US decides to invade for real).

My guess would be that, if the US does invade or go to war with Iran, the next revolution would bring up an even more extremist government.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Do you think there is no indoctrination in public schools?

No, I don't. Not in the sense I described above. When I went to school, there was no teacher there telling me what I must think and believe. Well, that's not entirely true. In grade school (I think it's called that in english) you were of course told "facts" and asked to memorise them like a robotic of sorts. But when we got to a certain level (high school, is it in english?) you were taught to read everything with a sense of skepticism and a critical mind, figuring out for yourself what seemed right and true.

Many of us had different opinons on many different matters and it was still ok by the teachers. In fact, if you were able to clearly express your own opinon rather than plaguerising some book, you would get counter arguments from the teacher (of course, not all teachers were good, but most), but also a good grade reflecting that it pays off to think for yourself.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I really don't care what you think, Hal. You cite a bigoted article wondering about the fate of Christian Europe with all these Muslims breeding like rabbits and expect it to be treated like it's right up there on an intellectual plane with Quantum Mechanics. LH is being his usual ignorant and arrogant self and the whole discussion from your and his side has the unpleasant stench of anti-Muslim bias and hatred.

...the whole discussion from your and his side has the unpleasant stench of anti-Muslim bias and hatred.

I'm not even going to bother asking for substantiation, since I'm sure you'll wrangle something to support this. Let it suffice with my categorical denial of any such sentiment. I'm sure if we were discussing nation X that was immigrating to Europe you'd find some way of twisting this into bigoted X-hate speech.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
My guess would be that, if the US does invade or go to war with Iran, the next revolution would bring up an even more extremist government.

Because an outside force is imposing themselves on the iranian people. They must be allowed to solve this on their own. If they ask for help from the outside, they should receive that help. If the US invades, it's no different to most iranians than if Mahmoud Ahmadinejad decided to make real some of the crasy things he claimed he would do if he were elected (like the separation of women and men on the streets using military forces).

(Actually, I'm not sure if he did do that. He also said he would make the Internet completely inaccessible to the iranian people. I don't think he went that far, though.)

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]...the whole discussion from your and his side has the unpleasant stench of anti-Muslim bias and hatred.

I'm not even going to bother asking for substantiation, since I'm sure you'll wrangle something to support this. Let it suffice with my categorical denial of any such sentiment. I'm sure if we were discussing nation X that was immigrating to Europe you'd find some way of twisting this into bigoted X-hate speech.[/b]

How predictable.

Originally posted by no1marauder
How predictable.

😏

Does anyone have any statistics on how many imigrants entering Europe are actually muslim? One obvious solution for those not wanting Europe to become muslim would be to increase the number of imigrants from non-muslim areas of Africa!

I still dont understand why, when so many people are crying overpopulation, we have other people worrying about a declining population. And why is it so important not to loose a culture?

Originally posted by twhitehead
And why is it so important not to loose a culture?

Believe it or not, but there are people who actually identifies themselves through their culture and national belonging. Obviously, they don't want to lose their identity.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
On a comparative basis, yes.

I have no idea what you mean.

Those freedoms you mentioned--the ones you said you'd miss--these were present under the Shah?