the latter day saints ( the mormons )

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i hope you dont mind me saying, but, you talk nonsense! no one knows the exact pronunciation of the divine name, not you, not the Jews, nobody. secondly the ancient name is preserved in such names as Elijah, Adonijah with emphassis on the second syllable, JAH! an abbreviation of the divine name.. what is made up my dear, is your pronunciation. th ...[text shortened]... e the name that has been commonly used since the 16th century and perhaps even earlier, Jehovah.

Robbie, you need to get your Rabbinic Jew on there, lad! There has been an active rabbinic oral tradition all this time; 3,000 years ago, 1,500 years ago, and today. I'm certain the Jewish clergy knows the name of the most Holy of Holies, even if they didn't let you in on the secret handshake. I'm supposing that since you're not Jewish they did not feel so obligated. 😛

Originally posted by Badwater
Robbie, you need to get your Rabbinic Jew on there, lad! There has been an active rabbinic oral tradition all this time; 3,000 years ago, 1,500 years ago, and today. I'm certain the Jewish clergy knows the name of the most Holy of Holies, even if they didn't let you in on the secret handshake. I'm supposing that since you're not Jewish they did not feel so obligated. 😛

The oral tradition was entirely separate from the law and was not accepted by all. The main problem of course is that the Jews themselves stopped pronouncing the name of God lest that it be taken in vain, for the punishment for this was severe and it became lost through time.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The oral tradition was entirely separate from the law and was not accepted by all. The main problem of course is that the Jews themselves stopped pronouncing the name of God lest that it be taken in vain, for the punishment for this was severe and it became lost through time.

And thanks g*d for that.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
And thanks g*d for that.

why are you giving thanks? that the pronunciation was lost, that not all accepted the oral tradition, that the punishment was severe and thus the Jews desisted? that Gods name should not be taken in vain? or you are just happy and want to express your sentiments?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why are you giving thanks? that the pronunciation was lost, that not all accepted the oral tradition, that the punishment was severe and thus the Jews desisted? that Gods name should not be taken in vain? or you are just happy and want to express your sentiments?

Do I really have to sp*ll out the humour? 😀

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The oral tradition was entirely separate from the law and was not accepted by all. The main problem of course is that the Jews themselves stopped pronouncing the name of God lest that it be taken in vain, for the punishment for this was severe and it became lost through time.

So let me get this right - you're suggesting that the upper echelons of Jewish religious clergy forgot how to pronounce God's name? Just forgot? Whoopsie?

The most important word in the religion, and they don't know? Did they also misplace his cell number there, Robbie?

And your source for this assertion is.....? Anything? Anything?

Originally posted by Badwater
So let me get this right - you're suggesting that the upper echelons of Jewish religious clergy forgot how to pronounce God's name? Just forgot? Whoopsie?

The most important word in the religion, and they don't know? Did they also misplace his cell number there, Robbie?

And your source for this assertion is.....? Anything? Anything?

what is it about not pronouncing the divine name lest it be taken in vain that you do not understand? its not about forgetting, or about cell phones, its about an ordinance given in the law, to which they did not wish to transgress. Are you perhaps unaware of the plethora of prohibitions which had grown up around the law and its interpretation? please Baddy i got more respect for you than that, all though it just may diminish due to the tone of this comment. Has Zapanzy assimilated you into his world of buffoonery and outlandish assertions?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Do I really have to sp*ll out the humour? 😀

sorry i forgot the sound of laughter there for a moment! please forgive the harsh tone!

Originally posted by Badwater
So let me get this right - you're suggesting that the upper echelons of Jewish religious clergy forgot how to pronounce God's name? Just forgot? Whoopsie?

The most important word in the religion, and they don't know? Did they also misplace his cell number there, Robbie?

And your source for this assertion is.....? Anything? Anything?

must i do every thing for you?

In his introduction to the article on YHWH in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, David Noel Freedman wrote (p. 5:500): “The correct pronunciation of the name was lost from Jewish tradition some time during the Middle Ages; late in the period of the Second Temple the name had come to be regarded as unspeakably holy and therefore unsuitable for use in public reading.”

The primary reason for this reluctance to pronounce the divine name is unknown. In the book of Deuteronomy, God’s name is called “this glorious and fearful name” (Deuteronomy 28:58). In Leviticus, the word “Hashem,” “the Name” stands for the Tetragrammaton (Leviticus 24:11). Probably it was the fear of profaning God’s name (Leviticus 22:2) that prompted Israel to restrict the use of the divine name.

Post-exilic books such as Esther, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs do not use the Tetragrammaton. In the book of Daniel, a book that probably reflects the situation in the days of the Maccabees (2nd century B.C.), the name of God appears only in chapter 9.

The translators of the Septuagint followed the Jewish community’s tradition regarding the use of the divine name. The Septuagint translates the divine name as Kyrios, Lord. The writers of the New Testament followed Jewish practice and also used the word Kyrios to translate the divine name. A good example is seen in Joel 2:32:

MT: “And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of YHWH shall be saved.”

LXX: “And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord (Kyrios) shall be saved.”

NT: “For, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord (Kyrios) shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).

In the New Testament the name “Lord,” the same word used in the Septuagint to translate the divine name YHWH, becomes a title used to identify Jesus Christ. (which has caused much confusion and led to erroneous assertions in my opinion)

Josephus, writing in the Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94 A.D.) abstained from using the divine name. He wrote:

“Moses having now seen and heard these wonders that assured him of the truth of these promises of God, had no room left him to disbelieve them; he entreated him to grant him that power when he should be in Egypt; and besought him to vouchsafe him the knowledge of his own name; and, since he had heard and seen him, that he would also tell him his name, that when he offered sacrifice he might invoke him by such his name in his oblations. Whereupon God declared to him his holy name, which had never been discovered to men before; concerning which it is not lawful for me to say any more” (Ant. 2, 12, 4).

http://www.claudemariottini.com/blog/2008/08/pronouncing-divine-name-part-3.html

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
must i do every thing for you?

In his introduction to the article on YHWH in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, David Noel Freedman wrote (p. 5:500): “The correct pronunciation of the name was lost from Jewish tradition some time during the Middle Ages; late in the period of the Second Temple the name had come to be regarded as unspe 2, 12, 4).

http://www.claudemariottini.com/blog/2008/08/pronouncing-divine-name-part-3.html

...the name had come to be regarded as unspeakably holy and therefore unsuitable for use in public reading...

I'm not talking about public reading. That should be clear.

The primary reason for this reluctance to pronounce the divine name is unknown...

No it's not. That's silliness and non-thinking at work. And the act of pronouncing or wanting to pronounce is different from knowing how to pronounce.

If I feel like it I'll dig up resources on the Jewish oral tradition(s).

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is it about not pronouncing the divine name lest it be taken in vain that you do not understand? ...

This is also silliness. The name would be uttered once a year. This is completely different from public speaking of the name or some irrational fear of the name of God being taken in vain.

Originally posted by Badwater
[b]...the name had come to be regarded as unspeakably holy and therefore unsuitable for use in public reading...

I'm not talking about public reading. That should be clear.

The primary reason for this reluctance to pronounce the divine name is unknown...

No it's not. That's silliness and non-thinking at work. And the act of pronouncing o ...[text shortened]... ow to pronounce.

If I feel like it I'll dig up resources on the Jewish oral tradition(s).[/b]

these are not entirely my sentiments, what i merely chose to state was, as per the evidence i sourced in about 20 seconds, the pronunciation of the divine name died out, and today, no one knows how the tertragramaton was exactly pronounced, for it is written without vowels. All these other points are mere side issues. the fact of which is clearly shown that in the time of Josephus, he held it 'unlawful', to pronounce the divine name, and he was a levite. At one point it was certainly in common usage, however, as has been established, due to its sacrosanct nature, rather than transgress the law, the practice arose of not pronouncing it at all. How you can dispute this, i do not know, for i understood that it was common knowledge.


In time rabbinic teaching fostered the erroneous view that Leviticus 24:10-23 prohibited as blasphemous the very pronunciation of the name Jehovah. Talmudic tradition also prescribed that when the religious judges heard testimony setting forth blasphemous words supposedly used by the accused, they were to rend their garments, following the example at 2 Kings 18:37; 19:1-4.—The Jewish Encyclopedia, 1976, Vol. III, p. 237; compare Mt 26:65.