The Love of God

Originally posted by @dj2becker
That is exactly why I asked Rajk the question. Lots of people do charitable works but they are simply doing what is at the end of the chain rather than going through the whole process. Charitable works alone do not save us.

And I told you that God is not fooled by this.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." -- Matthew 7:13-14, KJV

Rajk will tell you that "Faith without works is dead."

Even more so, works without faith.

Originally posted by @suzianne
And I told you that God is not fooled by this.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." -- Matthew 7:13-14, KJV

Rajk will tell you that "Faith without works is dead."

Even more so, works without faith.

I agree. You are preaching to the choir. Raj told me before that we can be saved by works alone, faith is not required. Hence my question to him.

Originally posted by @eladar
The Bible is a bit more complex than mere action and a bit more complex than helping generically the poor.

If a person simply will not work, that person should not eat.

Suzi will claim that no such people exist but the Bible says there are. Who are we to believe?

I really, really, really, really, really, really, really wish you'd stop using the Bible as a weapon.

It's attitudes like yours that made the Crusades possible.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
I agree. You are preaching to the choir. Raj told me before that we can be saved by works alone, faith is not required. Hence my question to him.

I've been around that bush with Rajk multiple times.

When pressed he does admit that both works and faith are required.

He's just a little more adamant about works. I find myself agreeing: Not that works are 'required', but that they can serve as a signpost as to who is 'saved' and who is not. Those who are saved yet have no works will have to answer for this at Judgement.

Those who are saved are always to be found 'in the field' where the works need to be done, where "the rubber meets the road", so to speak. Certainly there are others there as well who are NOT saved; I've met my share of atheists while helping those in need. Rajk does Christians a disservice by claiming that ALL of these people showing "love for their neighbor" are saved, when this is just not true. Some are self-serving politicians, who, as you say, are there for the photo op.

But God knows the diff. Faith, or love for God, IS required.

Originally posted by @suzianne
I've been around that bush with Rajk multiple times.

When pressed he does admit that both works and faith are required.

He's just a little more adamant about works. I find myself agreeing: Not that works are 'required', but that they can serve as a signpost as to who is 'saved' and who is not. Those who are saved yet have no works will have to answ ...[text shortened]... ay, are there for the photo op.

But God knows the diff. Faith, or love for God, IS required.

Totally agree. Without faith it is impossible to please God. He that claims to have faith but doesn't help the poor and the needy is a liar.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Totally agree. Without faith it is impossible to please God. He that claims to have faith but doesn't help the poor and the needy is a liar.

There now, see?

You have more in agreement with Rajk than you thought you did when the thread started.

Granted, he often says that atheists who show love for their neighbor have a better chance at salvation than Christians who do not. I say that dogs have a better chance than either of those groups. After all, "all dogs go to heaven". 🙂

Originally posted by @suzianne
There now, see?

You have more in agreement with Rajk than you thought you did when the thread started.

Granted, he often says that atheists who show love for their neighbor have a better chance at salvation than Christians who do not. I say that dogs have a better chance than either of those groups. After all, "all dogs go to heaven". 🙂

I still disagree with his statement that "All people who practice this charitable love, will enter the Kingdom of God..." because even atheists practise charitable love.

I agree about the dogs. 🙂

Originally posted by @freakykbh
Why the focus on damnation?
How does the question of whether it lasts a split second or for eternity so captivate your thinking as to act in the unseemly manner you do?

You want a Bible verse?

[b]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

[/b]

Lol .. another cherry-picker. Saved means saved from their sins by the death of Christ. Saved does not mean they automaticall get eternal life. All people from Adam to the end of the time are saved from their sins by the death of Christ. Let me know if you want the reference for that.

'Saved' does not mean that they get eternal life and get into the Kingdom of God. Paul explains this but you did not bother reading so far.

Here is what Paul said a few verses down from your quote, and he is addressing these very same Christian saints:

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us,
and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God
for a sweetsmelling savour.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness,
let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting,
which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person,
nor covetous man, who is an idolater,
hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
(Ephesians 5:1-5 KJV)

In a nutshell, even those who are saved will not enter the kingdom of God
unless they live righteously, keep away from sin.

Eternal life is a gift of God.
Eternal life is by the grace of God.
Eternal life is for righteous people.
God will judge all people.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
I still disagree with his statement that "[b]All people who practice this charitable love, will enter the Kingdom of God..." because even atheists practise charitable love.

I agree about the dogs. 🙂[/b]

Jesus said that in Matt 25. If what you call faith is the critical thing which bars someone from entry into Gods Kingdom then something so easy to say would have been included by Christ, But in that very long statement in Matt 25 about the judgment, containing over 300 words, Jesus not once mentioned the word 'faith'. Its all about works, going into great detail, its charity, giving to the poor and needy. Those who do it enter, those who dont are cast out.

The reason for that is simple.
Jesus sees the heart of man.
Jesus dislikes talk.
The reward is for those who pick him up from off the street
For those who feed him
Those who clothe him.
Those who profess to love him and then walk past him
WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Originally posted by @suzianne

Granted, he often says that atheists who show love for their neighbor have a better chance at salvation than Christians who do not. I say that dogs have a better chance than either of those groups. After all, "all dogs go to heaven". 🙂[/b]

Even with a nicely smiley emoticon, I still find that pretty abhorrent. (And let's not forget biblically naïve).

There are certainly biblical references to where non-believers have pleased God and to where God's law is written on the hearts of 'all' men who act according to their conscience. Hence, an atheist who shows love to their neighbour is doing God's work, while a Christian who doesn't show love to their neighbour isn't. - You get that right?

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Even with a nicely smiley emoticon, I still find that pretty abhorrent. (And let's not forget biblically naïve).

There are certainly biblical references to where non-believers have pleased God and to where God's law is written on the hearts of 'all' men who act according to their conscience. Hence, an atheist who shows love to their neighbour is ...[text shortened]... 's work, while a Christian who doesn't show love to their neighbour isn't. - You get that right?

No. One cannot pass the test of Judgement unless they have faith in God and belief that Jesus is the Son of God sent to be a Savior for them. For those who pass that benchmark, following the commandments of Christ is required. Works alone will not get you in the door, faith is required. But once you're in, your works will take you the rest of the way.

As for dogs, they have unconditional love. This seems to satisfy both faith (love for God) and works (love for your neighbor). Would that man could be as righteous.

Atheists lack the faith part, they have no love for God. Even if they show love for their neighbors above love for themselves, their lack of faith is still... disturbing, and is enough to disqualify them. Similarly, a Christian could have a faith for the ages, but if they treat their fellow man like dirt, it is enough to show their faith to be... insufficient, and is enough to disqualify them.

Sorry, but the humble dog is clearly above both these groups. You're free to be "offended" all you want.

Originally posted by @rajk999
Jesus said that in Matt 25. If what you call faith is the critical thing which bars someone from entry into Gods Kingdom then something so easy to say would have been included by Christ, But in that very long statement in Matt 25 about the judgment, containing over 300 words, Jesus not once mentioned the word 'faith'. Its all about works, going into great d ...[text shortened]... e him.
Those who profess to love him and then walk past him
WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

But what of Matthew 22?

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."-- Matthew 22:39, KJV

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." This is the first commandment. THIS is the faith Christians profess, NOT what you presume to call "mouth worship". By whose authority are you called to judge these Christians? God knows, and God will judge, not you. Jesus sees the heart of man, indeed. This is NOT the condition of those who would merely profess to love him and then walk past him. Maybe that is your faith. But that is not what faith is. Those who love God have faith and it IS required.

And the second is like unto it. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." THIS is works, which you consistently claim to be above faith, yet works is part of the second commandment, not the first, which is faith. As such, it is also required, but only once one has faith.

I admire your enthusiasm for works, most Christians do tend to give the concept short shrift, but they fail to understand that it shows God that one does indeed have love for their neighbor. But to just blow off the importance of faith is to miss the target. Faith, the love of God, is the first and greatest commandment for a reason. And for you to call the faith of your brothers mere "mouth worship" is to abandon all of your magnificent "works".

One wonders how much love you actually have for your neighbor if you cannot even have love for your Christian brothers. Just as Faith does not equal Works, so does No Works not necessarily equal No Faith. Works follows Faith, and so Faith must be first, or the Works mean nothing. You cannot make the same claim for Works, because as in scripture, Works is second.

Originally posted by @suzianne
One cannot pass Judgement unless they have faith in God and belief that Jesus is the Son of God sent to be a Savior for them. ..

Nowhere is this in the Bible.
This is a figment of the imagination of Christian churches.
I wont ask for a quote becuase there is none.

Originally posted by @suzianne
No. One cannot pass Judgement unless they have faith in God and belief that Jesus is the Son of God sent to be a Savior for them. For those who pass that benchmark, following the commandments of Christ is required. Works alone will not get you in the door, faith is required. But once you're in, your works will take you the rest of the way.

As for do ...[text shortened]... t the humble dog is clearly above both these groups. You're free to be "offended" all you want.

Amused rather than offended.

A dog's 'unconditional love' for his master has nothing to do with God. If it does, than an atheist's unconditional love for their children (or dog even) would achieve the same benchmark. If a dog is made righteous by their faith and works (on the basis of their unconditional love) then so is the faith and works shown by the atheist.

Sorry to break it to you.

Originally posted by @suzianne
But what of Matthew 22?

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."-- Matthew 22:39, KJV

"Thou ...[text shortened]... ing. You cannot make the same claim for Works, because as in scripture, Works is [b]second.[/b]

You are such a liar. You have spent the last 10 yrs or so bashing everything I have said. You have blindly supported these so-called Christians brothers that YOU have. These are not my Christian brothers. These are a bunch of mouth worshiping hypocrites on this site, with a few exceptions. My Christian brothers are all those who regard the teachings of Christ and who believe that they are worth following. Some athests fall into the cdategory and I consider these atheists my brothers in Christ, as I am certain that Jesus will as well.

What you dont get in your little brain is that professions with your mouth are meaningless to Christ.
- A Christians professes faith with their mouth
- An atheist professes no faith with their mouth.
Both mean nothing. In the end BOTH PARTIES WILL BE JUDGED BY THEIR WORKS.
, becuse this is a true reflection of what is in their heart.

Put another way a righteous Atheist secretly believes in God.
An unrighteous Christian secretly does not believe in God.

God knows who is who.