1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    22 Feb '15 16:111 edit
    The Meaning of the Word "Repent"

    The Meaning of the Word "Repent" in the Koine Greek of the Word of God is grossly misunderstood by many well intentioned believers in Christ. For example: "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Acts 20:21) simply means they have considered His claims and have "change their minds" about the person of Jesus Christ. Whether there's an emotional appreciation involved or not is never the issue in salvation.

    Mistranslations:

    The meaning of the Greek metanoia/μετάνοια is very different from the meaning of the English repentance, and the meaning of the Greek metanoeō/μετανοέω is very different from the meaning of the English repent. Therefore, Walden describes the translation of metanoia as repentance as "an extraordinary mistranslation."

    The translation of metanoia as repentance began in the 2nd century when the Greek metanoeō was translated into the Latin as poenitentiam agite.

    In biblical Greek, metanoeō/μετανοέω and metanoia/μετάνοια signify a "change of Mind, a change in the trend and action of the whole inner nature, intellectual, affectional and moral."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(theology)

    Strong's Concordance:

    metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
    Original Word: μετανοέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: metanoeó
    Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
    Short Definition: I repent, change my mind
    Definition: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.

    HELPS Word-studies
    3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think" ) – properly,
    "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards" ).

    http://biblehub.com/greek/3340.htm

    “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." (John 3:16-17) I'd invite my agnostic and atheist friends to reconsider their rejection of Christ.
  2. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    78519
    23 Feb '15 01:30
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]The Meaning of the Word "Repent"

    The Meaning of the Word "Repent" in the Koine Greek of the Word of God is grossly misunderstood by many well intentioned believers in Christ. For example: "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Acts 20:21) simply means they h ...[text shortened]... 6-17) I'd invite my agnostic and atheist friends to reconsider their rejection of Christ.[/b]
    I find it difficult to see how an etymology of the word repent as it appears in the bible provides a reason for conversion.

    I'd always taken "repent of sins" to mean not do them any more, which does not in itself require any belief in a god, but does require a change of heart if it is to be sustainable. Your quoted text seems to indicate that repenting of sins does not necessarily involve being sorry?

    Also I wonder how this would apply to an individual who didn't believe, due, for example, to living in a non-Christian country, but who was virtuous. From a Christian point of view their only fault would be not being a Christian. Other than accepting Christ, which for them would not require any change of behaviour other than going to church, I'm left what is the point of this overarching change is?
  3. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    23 Feb '15 01:49
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    The Meaning of the Word "Repent" in the Koine Greek of the Word of God is grossly misunderstood by many well intentioned believers in Christ.
    You have claimed many, many times that "salvation" is guaranteed and irreversible if, even just for a moment in time, one believes in Christ. This "salvation" is even immune to sin and good or bad deeds; you have said so many times. So what would be the issue with a believer in Christ who "misunderstood" a particular word, or even misunderstood it "grossly"? If such a misunderstanding cannot reverse the believer's "salvation", what is the significance of highlighting the difference of opinion ~ beyond it giving one Christian the opportunity to lecture fellow Christians on a kind of technocratic level?
  4. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    23 Feb '15 05:272 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I find it difficult to see how an etymology of the word repent as it appears in the bible provides a reason for conversion.

    I'd always taken "repent of sins" to mean not do them any more, which does not in itself require any belief in a god, but does require a change of heart if it is to be sustainable. Your quoted text seems to indicate that repenti ...[text shortened]... behaviour other than going to church, I'm left what is the point of this overarching change is?
    DeepThought, thanks for christening this thread with logical and clear [rather than arbitrary] statement and questions.

    a) The "etymology of the word repent as it appears in the bible" isn't intended to provide "a reason for conversion" per se. Its purpose is hopefully to clear away any and all emotional debris before any serious conversation begins.

    b) All of the sins of mankind [past, present and future] were imputed to Jesus Christ during His substitutionary spiritual death the final three hours of His Crucifixion at Golgotha Hill; this judicial imputation propitiated [satisfied] God the Father's Justice and Righteousness. In doing so, personal sin was/is permanently eliminated as an issue in salvation.

    c) The only issue is "What do you think of Christ?"

    d) After salvation confessing [privately naming] sin to God the Father regains the Filling of the Holy Spirit for fellowship and empowerment to grow in grace and fulfill God's plan and purpose for your life: 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our [known] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness [unknown sins]." Though regret and/or guilt may precede this frequent inaudible prayer, nothing of any value is added by "being sorry".

    e) God is not some sentimentalist or bleeding heart who needs to placated or coddled; He simply desires that believers are maturing and acquiring the Mind of Christ and an awareness of His Standards of Righteousness and sin.

    f) Those who die without having believed in Christ will appear before the Great White Throne Judgment at the conclusion of the Millennial Reign of Christ. Since their names which were written in the Lamb's Book of Life at physical birth have been deleted, a "Second Book" [The Book of Works] is opened. It contains every good deed, charitable work and virtuous act by each individual who has rejected God's Grace Gift of salvation, eternal life, relationship in time and eternity. Let's say Charlie Brown has 971,489,603, 001 human good works; they equal 0.000.000.000.000 units of God's Righteousness.

    g) This is the basis of the unbeliever's separation from God for eternity, alone with the 'worm' [memories] that never dies.

    h) There is no immediate change in personality or behavior after salvation. The renewing or renovation of an infant believer's mind requires being accurately taught the truths revealed in the Word of God on a systematic basis.

    i) Spiritual as with physical maturity is a process which takes time. The change is invisible but real: body and soul at physical birth [dichotomous] and trichotomous [body, soul and human spirit imputed by the Holy Spirit] at spiritual birth.

    j) No one can ever love anyone without first learning enough about them to know who and what they are. With God it begins with appreciation and then respect; then reverential awe; and eventually personal love and occupation with Christ.
  5. Joined
    10 Apr '12
    Moves
    320
    24 Feb '15 01:26
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    DeepThought, thanks for christening this thread with logical and clear [rather than arbitrary] statement and questions.

    a) The "etymology of the word repent as it appears in the bible" isn't intended to provide "a reason for conversion" per se. Its purpose is hopefully to clear away any and all emotional debris before any serious conversation begin ...[text shortened]... and then respect; then reverential awe; and eventually personal love and occupation with Christ.
    Some don't grasp the connection between Repentance and one's relationship with the True God. Perhaps this citation can help them.

    The verb “repent” means “change one’s mind with regard to past (or intended) action, or conduct, on account of regret or dissatisfaction,” or “feel regret, contrition, or compunction, for what one has done or omitted to do.” Thus, me·ta·no·eʹo stresses the changed viewpoint or disposition, a rejecting of the past or intended course or action as undesirable (Re 2:5; 3:3), while me·ta·meʹlo·mai lays emphasis on the feeling of regret experienced by the person. (Mt 21:30) As the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (edited by G. Kittel, Vol. IV, p. 629) comments: “When, therefore, the N[ew] T[estament] separates the meanings of [these terms], it displays a clear awareness of the unchangeable substance of both concepts. In contrast, Hellenistic usage often effaced the boundary between the two words.”—Translated by G. Bromiley, 1969.

    Human Repentance for Sins. The cause making repentance necessary is sin, failure to meet God’s righteous requirements. (1Jo 5:17) Since all mankind was sold into sin by Adam, all of his descendants have had need of repentance. (Ps 51:5; Ro 3:23; 5:12)

    Repentance (followed by conversion) is a prerequisite for man’s being reconciled to God.
  6. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    78519
    24 Feb '15 02:06
    Originally posted by roigam
    Some don't grasp the connection between Repentance and one's relationship with the True God. Perhaps this citation can help them.

    The verb “repent” means “change one’s mind with regard to past (or intended) action, or conduct, on account of regret or dissatisfaction,” or “feel regret, contrition, or compunction, for what one has done or omitted to do.” Thu ...[text shortened]... 2)

    Repentance (followed by conversion) is a prerequisite for man’s being reconciled to God.
    Yes, you see this is closer to my understanding of repentance.
  7. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    78519
    24 Feb '15 03:17
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    DeepThought, thanks for christening this thread with logical and clear [rather than arbitrary] statement and questions.

    a) The "etymology of the word repent as it appears in the bible" isn't intended to provide "a reason for conversion" per se. Its purpose is hopefully to clear away any and all emotional debris before any serious conversation begin ...[text shortened]... and then respect; then reverential awe; and eventually personal love and occupation with Christ.
    I suspect that what I'm about to ask wasn't entirely the direction that you wanted the thread to go in, however, your posts seem to indicate that post-conversion sin is automatically forgiven. Humans are imperfect, so I understand the notion that we get some slack so to speak, but what what worries me about your position is the notion that this applies to any sin post-conversion, including apostasy.

    Let's take my case. Because my parents are practising Christians when I was a child I had the unquestioning belief of a child. At some point, around when I was thirteen, God no longer existed for me; from a Christian point of view I am therefore apostate. However you seem to be saying that because I was baptised and was a believer during my childhood I am saved. An objection you might make is that the belief I had was that of a child and it is the mature adult belief that is needed, so my first question is is that correct - a child's belief is not enough for one who has become apostate and it needs to be the mature belief of an adult?

    Now let us take the counterfactual possibility that instead of stopping believing when I was thirteen I stopped believing when I was thirty. In that case I would have believed when I was an adult. So would my lost adult belief be enough for the redemption of my sins?

    One objection that you might make is that if I lost my faith I didn't really have it in the first place - that I hadn't, in fact, repented in the transformational way you and roigam describe in your posts. Is this what you are saying? I think FMF might take issue with the notion that when he believed he didn't really believe.

    I think that many would have qualms with the notion that anyone who believed would gain admittance to heaven no matter what atrocities they committed in this world. The most obvious example of a candidate for damnation is Hitler, although it is not clear what his religious beliefs were but let us suppose for the sake of argument that he was a Christian, would Hitler therefore get into heaven?

    On the other hand, one virtue of your position, as I understand it, is that it escapes the "be ethical so you get the prize" vulgarity. There is then no particular advantage in ethical behaviour and we are free to behave well because it is the right thing to do and not just because if we don't we might go to Hell.
  8. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    24 Feb '15 03:52
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I suspect that what I'm about to ask wasn't entirely the direction that you wanted the thread to go in, however, your posts seem to indicate that post-conversion sin is automatically forgiven. Humans are imperfect, so I understand the notion that we get some slack so to speak, but what what worries me about your position is the notion that this applies to ...[text shortened]... ehave well because it is the right thing to do and not just because if we don't we might go to Hell.
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    "Let's take my case. Because my parents are practising Christians when I was a child I had the unquestioning belief of a child. At some point, around when I was thirteen, God no longer existed for me; from a Christian point of view I am therefore apostate."
    _____________________________

    Would you be comfortable discussing these points one at a time? If so, it appears that you "repented" [changed your mind] about God's existence at the age of "thirteen". This is precisely the meaning of the word in the Word of God. Okay so far?
  9. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    78519
    24 Feb '15 04:57
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    "Let's take my case. Because my parents are practising Christians when I was a child I had the unquestioning belief of a child. At some point, around when I was thirteen, God no longer existed for me; from a Christian point of view I am therefore apostate."
    _____________________________

    Would you be comfortab ...[text shortened]... he age of "thirteen". This is precisely the meaning of the word in the Word of God. Okay so far?
    I'm happy with that, it'll probably make it easier to follow, although the paragraphs are linked and the points shouldn't be taken in complete isolation from one another.

    I'm not sure I'd use the word repent to describe my realisation that I'd stopped believing in God, whether the word repentance in the Bible necessarily implies sorrow or not the English word connotes it and I did not feel any particular sorrow or wish that I had not believed before. Also it didn't involve the overarching change you seemed to be describing. Stopping believing in God did not automatically mean that I turned to sin, whereas turning to God would imply turning away from sin. So I don't think you can claim that it is symmetric.
  10. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    24 Feb '15 08:59
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I'm happy with that, it'll probably make it easier to follow, although the paragraphs are linked and the points shouldn't be taken in complete isolation from one another.

    I'm not sure I'd use the word repent to describe my realisation that I'd stopped believing in God, whether the word repentance in the Bible necessarily implies sorrow or not the Engl ...[text shortened]... to God would imply turning away from sin. So I don't think you can claim that it is symmetric.
    Good. I share your "complete isolation" rationale.

    Mistranslations: (OP)

    The meaning of the Greek metanoia/μετάνοια is very different from the meaning of the English repentance, and the meaning of the Greek metanoeō/μετανοέω is very different from the meaning of the English repent. Therefore, Walden describes the translation of metanoia as repentance as "an extraordinary mistranslation."

    The translation of metanoia as repentance began in the 2nd century when the Greek metanoeō was translated into the Latin as poenitentiam agite.

    In biblical Greek, metanoeō/μετανοέω and metanoia/μετάνοια signify a "change of Mind, a change in the trend and action of the whole inner nature, intellectual, affectional and moral."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_(theology)

    "Strong's Concordance:

    metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose" (OP)

    The words "repent" and "repentance" do imply "sorrow" in the English today and have since "the 2nd century when the Greek metanoeō was translated into the Latin as poenitentiam agite." (wiki/Metanoia) In the New Testament of the Bible, which was written earlier in Koine Greek prior to the Latin mistranslation, these words do not imply "sorrow".

    A woman buys a new dress; tries it on again at when she gets home; stands before a full length mirror looking at herself in the new dress, only to realize the light color is anything but flattering; she "repents" of her purchase decision [changes her mind] and returns it to the store later that afternoon. We must divest the word "repent" of its mistranslated meaning.

    At the age of thirteen you "stopped believing in God". For whatever the reason, you changed your mind. Continue?
  11. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    78519
    24 Feb '15 16:04
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Good. I share your "complete isolation" rationale.

    [quote]Mistranslations: (OP)

    The meaning of the Greek metanoia/μετάνοια is very different from the meaning of the English repentance, and the meaning of the Greek metanoeō/μετανοέω is very different from the meaning of the English repent. Therefore, Walden describes the translation of metan ...[text shortened]... irteen you "stopped believing in God". For whatever the reason, you changed your mind. Continue?
    Continue.
  12. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    24 Feb '15 16:21
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Continue.
    Several appointments today; will do so later this evening.
  13. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    78519
    24 Feb '15 16:23
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Several appointments today; will do so later this evening.
    No problem - I've got some work to be doing.
  14. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    01 Mar '15 15:42
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I suspect that what I'm about to ask wasn't entirely the direction that you wanted the thread to go in, however, your posts seem to indicate that post-conversion sin is automatically forgiven. Humans are imperfect, so I understand the notion that we get some slack so to speak, but what what worries me about your position is the notion that this applies to ...[text shortened]... ehave well because it is the right thing to do and not just because if we don't we might go to Hell.
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    "I suspect that what I'm about to ask wasn't entirely the direction that you wanted the thread to go in, however, your posts seem to indicate that post-conversion sin is automatically forgiven. Humans are imperfect, so I understand the notion that we get some slack so to speak, but what what worries me about your position is the notion that this applies to any sin post-conversion, including apostasy."
    __________________________________________

    Let's go back now to your opening paragraph which contains the phrase: "... that post-conversion sin is automatically forgiven." Sin in the life of a believer in Christ negates the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Restoration of the filling of the Holy Spirit is an option rather than automatic: "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth [of God's Standard of Righteousness] is not in us. If we confess [name, cite as in a judicial hearing] our sins, He is faithful [His Attribute of Immutability always does the same thing] and righteous [His Divine Righteousness was already satisfied by Christ's work of propitiation on the cross enabling Him] to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness [unknown sins or sins we may have forgotten]." (1John 1:8-9) Yes, my friend "this applies to any sin post-conversion, including apostasy."... as well as to incest and rape, murder and all other overt and covert sins. (to be continued)

    18) Spirituality: Though salvation is the result of one decision to believe, spirituality is the result of continuous decisions to depend upon the Holy Spirit and to be filled with the Spirit. The believer is mandated not to quench nor to grieve the Spirit by personal sin and by rejection of His grace and power. In addition, to walk by means of the Spirit and be filled with the Spirit, the Christian life can only be fulfilled by the power of the Spirit (Gal 5:16; Eph 4:30; 5:18; 1Thess 5:19). We also affirm that a believer's intimacy with the Holy Spirit, also known as fellowship, is suspended once he commits personal sins. This intimacy is restored when he names and cites his sin(s) to God (1 John 1:9)." -Pastor Bill Wenstrom (2 of 2) http://www.wenstrom.org/modules.php? Thread 158140
  15. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    78519
    01 Mar '15 16:20
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    "I suspect that what I'm about to ask wasn't entirely the direction that you wanted the thread to go in, however, your posts seem to indicate that post-conversion sin is automatically forgiven. Humans are imperfect, so I understand the notion that we get some slack so to speak, but what what worries me about you ...[text shortened]... Bill Wenstrom (2 of 2) http://www.wenstrom.org/modules.php? Thread 158140[/quote]
    So you have two things: salvation and spirituality. Salvation happens if God is accepted at one time in one's life. Spirituality is contingent. This raises the question of what the consequences of loss of spirituality are. Since salvation is guaranteed, the consequences of a loss of spirituality are confined to this world?
Back to Top