The Most Important Writing to Understand

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
For whatever reason, your disconnect lies in your misunderstanding of what justice means.
You compound the issue with hyperbole, but the crux of it lies in your ignorance of the concept.

It's a depraved and essentially demented man made parody of "justice".

Originally posted by FMF
It's a depraved and essentially demented man made parody of "justice".

As stated, you have no idea--- no frame of reference outside of your childish self--- upon which to base the concept of justice.
Anything other than complete agreement with your underdeveloped perspective is necessarily doomed to be labeled barbaric, vulgar and the like.
The problem isn't the concept; the problem is your immaturity.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
As stated, you have no idea--- no frame of reference outside of your childish self--- upon which to base the concept of justice.
Anything other than complete agreement with your underdeveloped perspective is necessarily doomed to be labeled barbaric, vulgar and the like.
The problem isn't the concept; the problem is your immaturity.

This is just a string of ad hominems that does not even attempt to explain your supposed understanding.

Originally posted by FMF
This is just a string of ad hominems that does not even attempt to explain your supposed understanding.

Yeah.
You have used that same line several times.
It's just as ineffective now as it was in the past.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Yeah.
You have used that same line several times.
It's just as ineffective now as it was in the past.

So where is your moral argument regarding the morality of permanent, eternal torture or your statement about your understanding of justice?

Originally posted by FMF
How did Jesus persuade you that eternal torture - meted out as angry vengeance - is "perfect justice"?

How did Jesus persuade you that eternal torture - meted out as angry vengeance - is "perfect justice"?
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First, by reading the Gospels I eventually arrived at a point that the integrity of Jesus Christ is beyond questioning.

In conjunction with this, as I read through many, many instances of God's righteous dealings (incuding some judgments) of beings all through the other books of the Bible, I perceived that His judgments are just.

Different levels of severity and different levels of His dealings tempered with full knowledge and often mercy, gained my confidence that God is just. I believed His word that He is perfectly just.

I got subdued as to my natural opinion in favor of God's revelation.
In conjunction with these factors there are hints of God's omniscience in judging which indicate some surprises will occur about which we don't know very much.

Eternal damnation appears to me to be the result of being frozen in a state of continual sinning.

As God's salvation renders the saved to become more and more like Christ maybe the opposite is true too. The unreconciled rebel against God being separated from God forever becomes more and more just like Satan.

But this is speculation which I would not push to much. Suffice it to say that stuck in continual blasphemy and hatred for God and His goodness will forever call for God's punishment.

So we need to believe in Christ for eternal salvation.

At any rate I know that if I cannot see everything through the eyes of Christ today, the day will come when I see everything through the same eyes as Christ - being conformed to His image.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] How did Jesus persuade you that eternal torture - meted out as angry vengeance - is "perfect justice"?
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First, by reading the Gospels I eventually arrived at a point that the integrity of Jesus Christ is beyond questioning.

In conjunction with this ...[text shortened]... will come when I see everything through the same eyes as Christ - being conformed to His image.[/b]

You have misunderstood the question. I am not talking about your personal opinion regarding the "integrity " of Jesus or whether you believe that one day you will "see everything through the same eyes as Christ". You said he "persuaded" you. Where did he talk about eternal torture?

Originally posted by FMF
So where is your moral argument regarding the morality of permanent, eternal torture or your statement about your understanding of justice?

Not sure what's getting lost in translation, but I'll give you another opportunity to work it out.
The values that you have are self-centered and therefore, immature.
Justice is a transcendent concept which is attached to the righteousness of God.
It safeguards His righteousness.
Therefore, whatever agrees with the righteousness of God, the justice of God promotes.
Whatever trespasses the righteousness of God, the justice of God condemns.
In your world view, violence against human flesh or even human existence is the ultimate wrong.
In reality, the only ultimate wrong is defiance against God.
Once you have your priorities straight, you'll realize how offensive you're being with any other stance.

Originally posted by sonship
In the matter of human [b]reading comprehension what writing on earth do you think is the MOST important to be read and comprehended ?

I say the Holy Bible.
I say its translation into so many languages is evidence of its importance.

What do you think is the most important writing in human language which should be prope ...[text shortened]... The Communist Manifesto ?

"The Conscience of a Conservative " ?

Plato's "The Republic" ?[/b]

"The" Bible is a collection of many different writings. Which Book did you have in mind?

Originally posted by sonship

In conjunction with this, as I read through many, many instances of God's righteous dealings (incuding some judgments) of beings all through the other books of the Bible, I perceived that His judgments are just. Different levels of severity and different levels of His dealings tempered with full knowledge and often mercy, gained my confidence that God is just. I believed His word that He is perfectly just. I got subdued as to my natural opinion in favor of God's revelation. In conjunction with these factors there are hints of God's omniscience in judging which indicate some surprises will occur about which we don't know very much. Eternal damnation appears to me to be the result of being frozen in a state of continual sinning. As God's salvation renders the saved to become more and more like Christ maybe the opposite is true too. The unreconciled rebel against God being separated from God forever becomes more and more just like Satan. But this is speculation which I would not push to much. Suffice it to say that stuck in continual blasphemy and hatred for God and His goodness will forever call for God's punishment. So we need to believe in Christ for eternal salvation.

Forgive the reference, but this sounds like an answer from Sir Humphrey Appleby in Yes Minister. Do you feel you are answering the question as to how Jesus persuaded you that the vengeful, wrathful unending torture of billions of human beings for the contents of their thoughts is "perfect justice"?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Not sure what's getting lost in translation, but I'll give you another opportunity to work it out.
The values that you have are self-centered and therefore, immature.
Justice is a transcendent concept which is attached to the righteousness of God.
It safeguards His righteousness.
Therefore, whatever agrees with the righteousness of God, the justice ...[text shortened]... have your priorities straight, you'll realize how offensive you're being with any other stance.

These are mere assertions peppered with more ad hominems to pad it out. I'm looking for an actual argument regarding the supposed morality of everlasting torture for people who don't happen to have the same beliefs about supernatural things as you do, or a statement as to why your understanding of this particular form of angry revenge constitutes what can coherently be described as "perfect" justice.

Originally posted by FMF
These are mere assertions peppered with more ad hominems to pad it out. I'm looking for an actual argument regarding the supposed morality of everlasting torture for people who don't happen to have the same beliefs about supernatural things as you do, or a statement as to why your understanding of this particular form of angry revenge constitutes what can coherently be described as "perfect" justice.

That's your problem (at least the main one): you think it all revolves around you.
Here's a news flash you may have missed: you are not the center of human history, nor the center of the universe.
You take offense when it's unintended simply because someone isn't fawning for your respect.
You completely miss the fact that the only respect anyone deserves is on account of being made in God's image.
There is a currency, a complete economic system, of which you are totally unaware and unable to trade in.
Until such time as you recognize the person around Whom human history revolves, you'll continue stumbling around struggling to find the words to convey your frustration.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That's your problem (at least the main one): you think it all revolves around you.
Here's a news flash you may have missed: you are not the center of human history, nor the center of the universe.
You take offense when it's unintended simply because someone isn't fawning for your respect.
You completely miss the fact that the only respect anyone dese ...[text shortened]... olves, you'll continue stumbling around struggling to find the words to convey your frustration.

There you go again. Ad hominem-strewn waffle.

I have not suggested that human history revolves around me. However, your propagation of your bizarre notions of morality and justice does need to revolve around some argument and justification, and not just post after post of patronizing babble that is all missing the mark and dodging the issue.

Both you and sonship, in your defence of your fantastical ideas about supernatural torture, come across like spokesmen for a tyrant or a gangster who refuses to take questions. This only adds to the the fact your medieval ideology comes across as an incoherent jumble of misguided swagger, misanthropy and superstition.

If eternal torture for a lack of belief is "ultimate morality" and "perfect justice" what lessons about morality and justice are humans supposed to draw from it to apply to morality and justice as it pertains to their interactions?

It's like expecting a child to take their cues for later life from a drunken abusive father. You need to replace your constant stream of attempted put downs with some morality-based argument in favour of your notion of justice.

Originally posted by FMF
There you go again. Ad hominem-strewn waffle.

I have not suggested that human history revolves around me. However, your propagation of your bizarre notions of morality and justice does need to revolve around some argument and justification, and not just post after post of patronizing babble that is all missing the mark and dodging the issue.

Both you and s ...[text shortened]... am of attempted put downs with some morality-based argument in favour of your notion of justice.

I forgot your other problem: the arrogance required to misconstrue meanings of words.
Your decision to equate torment with torture is a conscious, willfull act in an attempt to paint a picture which doesn't exist.
You continue your bumbling of concepts by declaring lack of belief is the deciding factor to receive eternal torment.
It isn't, and you are unable to support such tripe with anything scriptural without extreme contextual gymnastics.
But it makes for great sound bites, doesn't it?

Keep swinging, sweetie.
You're bound to hit something sooner or later.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Your decision to equate torment with torture is a conscious, willfull act in an attempt to paint a picture which doesn't exist. You continue your bumbling of concepts by declaring lack of belief is the deciding factor to receive eternal torment.

If you don't believe in the ideology of eternal torture for those who don't believe in your God figure then why on earth have you stepped into a discussion between me and a Christian who does (sonship)? If you don't agree with sonship's torturer God ideology, tackle him on it, rather than tackle me for tackling him.