Thinking about some of the discussions here now I'm wondering what are
the views about our nature? Granted for those that do not believe in God
or sin I'm sure they still would have opinions about human nature and I'm
interested in those as well.
What does a sinful nature mean? How would that play out in your opinion?
What is a nature where someone has one as love? How would that play out?
If you believe that our nature just sprung up from chemical reactions,
what does that mean? How would that play out?
My point of view is that our sinful nature would direct all things towards my
good, the worse I am the more I only care about myself.
Having a nature directed by love others would always come first.
I'll let those that wish to speak to a nature directed only by chemicals.
There are two issues that you've brought up. One is the nature of sin, in other words what is sin? Is there a secular equivalent to sin? If sin is defined in terms of God then probably not. If one does not believe that God exists then disobedience to God is disobedience to something that one does not believe exists. So any definition of sin in terms of obedience to God is meaningless to an atheist. So, what you mean by sin?
If sin means unethical behaviour then since we know of ethical systems sin exists for atheists as well. Humans are capable of restraining themselves from unethical behaviour and are not necessarily sinful, at least not all the time. It is in our nature to desire things we ought to restrain ourselves from having and it is in our nature to desire to do things we ought not to do. We are capable of exerting this restraint. The sinful act is not to have the desires, but to not restrain ourselves. So I disagree that humans are intrinsically sinful, it is not the desire that makes us sin but the absence of restraint.
In materialist conceptions of the mind it is a pattern. It subvenes on the neurones and, as you put it, chemicals present in the brain. It is an emergent phenomenon, dependent on the physical structure of the brain and the associated electrical activity, which can be measured. How much the electrical activity tells one about what is going on inside someone's mind is an interesting question. Some would say everything, others, myself included, think that it is unlikely to be the whole story. But really a discussion about this needs a neurologist, I just don't know enough about it to cope with a detailed discussion.
Originally posted by KellyJay"...I'm wondering what are the views about our nature?"
Thinking about some of the discussions here now I'm wondering what are
the views about our nature? Granted for those that do not believe in God
or sin I'm sure they still would have opinions about human nature and I'm
interested in those as well.
What does a sinful nature mean? How would that play out in your opinion?
What is a nature where someone ...[text shortened]... always come first.
I'll let those that wish to speak to a nature directed only by chemicals.
The problem is, everyone thinks they know something about it. That's the problem. It all stems from the beginning. It's in our nature to judge for ourselves the difference between right and wrong. That's the problem.
The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
This is the root of the problem with our nature, our nature is at variance with God. We now judge for ourselves what is right and wrong in indifference with the one who made us.
That's our nature.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI believe sin is willfull disobedience to God's will as presented in His laws in the Holy Bible. So an atheists sins when he violates God's law, whether or not the atheist believes in the existence of God. 😏
There are two issues that you've brought up. One is the nature of sin, in other words what is sin? Is there a secular equivalent to sin? If sin is defined in terms of God then probably not. If one does not believe that God exists then disobedience to God is disobedience to something that one does not believe exists. So any definition of sin in terms ...[text shortened]... this needs a neurologist, I just don't know enough about it to cope with a detailed discussion.
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Originally posted by KellyJayI'll let myself speak although not of chemicals.
Thinking about some of the discussions here now I'm wondering what are
the views about our nature? Granted for those that do not believe in God
or sin I'm sure they still would have opinions about human nature and I'm
interested in those as well.
What does a sinful nature mean? How would that play out in your opinion?
What is a nature where someone ...[text shortened]... always come first.
I'll let those that wish to speak to a nature directed only by chemicals.
Our nature is as that of social animals. Not animals in any derogatory sense, just animals. Smarts ones, but not quite smart enough. Loving ones, but not quite loving enough. That's our nature.
Originally posted by RJHindsBut you are defining sin in terms of an entity whose existence is not universally accepted. Also it's rule based, there should be a principle behind the rules.
I believe sin is willfull disobedience to God's will as presented in His laws in the Holy Bible. So an atheists sins when he violates God's law, whether or not the atheist believes in the existence of God. 😏
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Originally posted by KellyJayAbout "human nature" and "sin":
Thinking about some of the discussions here now I'm wondering what are
the views about our nature? Granted for those that do not believe in God
or sin I'm sure they still would have opinions about human nature and I'm
interested in those as well.
What does a sinful nature mean? How would that play out in your opinion?
What is a nature where someone ...[text shortened]... always come first.
I'll let those that wish to speak to a nature directed only by chemicals.
The nature of something is simply the traits of that something that all things of the same type shares by nature. Human nature is therefore all the traits that all humans share by nature; by virtue of being human. Our behaviours are mostly informed by our personal experience, knowledge, beliefs and ideas, none of which we have at birth. Sin is therefore a meaningless concept when applied directly to our nature. It is more about human social interaction than natural tendencies.
Having said that, I think many talk about "sinful nature" when they actually mean base urges and needs; saying we are sinful in nature, because by nature we all share certain desires. This is to confuse the issue. On the one hand you're talking about the natural urges (hunger, sex drive, survival instinct), that we have by virtue of being living, biological machines (not just humans), and on the other hand you're talking about how some people express these urges (or even just our wants to express these urges). But since all humans are intelligent individuals with different experiences, we find many different ways to express ourselves, indeed different wants, so that any definition of what is to be considered "sinful" doesn't apply to all humans (I suspect not even in general), thus...
...there's no such thing as human nature when talking about our propensity for sinful behaviour, unless we're talking about our shared instinctual behaviours (and being sinful - in the biblical sense - is clearly not about instinctual behaviour*).
* that is, you don't act against the will of a god out of instinct, but because you don't believe that this god exists and/or because you don't like what this god represents and/or because you don't agree with the given notion of sin and/or...
Originally posted by josephwVery well put!
[b]"...I'm wondering what are the views about our nature?"
The problem is, everyone thinks they know something about it. That's the problem. It all stems from the beginning. It's in our nature to judge for ourselves the difference between right and wrong. That's the problem.
The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Gen. 2:17 But of ...[text shortened]... rselves what is right and wrong in indifference with the one who made us.
That's our nature.[/b]
There's a difference between the physical nature and the so-called sin nature. Human nature, as with any other creature with a genetic code, has built in physical characteristics that contribute to behavior, but unlike animals humans have an added feature. We have a disposition toward making moral choices. We decide what is good or evil.
That feature is the so-called sin nature. Unlike animals humans have a spiritual component of our nature that is designed to commune with God, but is flawed due to disobedience. With the absence of the union with God man's spirit is bound to a self generated code of morality. It is the flaw in man's nature which results in man choosing what is right and wrong without consideration for God's absolute moral code.
Originally posted by KellyJayI think that our nature " just sprung up from chemical reactions" ( a bit more complex than that though). I think that evolutionary pressures will force us to find a productive way of living together in order to survive as a species. This process will probably be painful. I think our nature is animal with the addition of emerging qualities arising from complexity. The very concept of sin being one of those qualities.
Thinking about some of the discussions here now I'm wondering what are
the views about our nature? Granted for those that do not believe in God
or sin I'm sure they still would have opinions about human nature and I'm
interested in those as well.
What does a sinful nature mean? How would that play out in your opinion?
What is a nature where someone ...[text shortened]... always come first.
I'll let those that wish to speak to a nature directed only by chemicals.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtIt does not matter if God's existence is not universally accepted. What matters is that because God is the creator, his rules and laws take priority. That is the universal principle. 😏
But you are defining sin in terms of an entity whose existence is not universally accepted. Also it's rule based, there should be a principle behind the rules.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
Originally posted by RJHindsThat's a circular argument. If God is good then it should be possible for someone with ignorance of his laws largely to avoid sin by living ethically. If it is not then the laws are simply arbitrary. So what are the underlying principles on which God's laws are based?
It does not matter if God's existence is not universally accepted. What matters is that because God is the creator, his rules and laws take priority. That is the universal principle. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
Originally posted by DeepThoughtDT, I and many others have tried to engage RJ in sensible conversation, it doesn't work, RJ is the epitome of Cognitive Dissonance . Good luck. Holy,holy hallelujah praise the Darwin!!🙂
But you are defining sin in terms of an entity whose existence is not universally accepted. Also it's rule based, there should be a principle behind the rules.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtAccording to scripture, its basically both. Those with the Law will be judged
That's a circular argument. If God is good then it should be possible for someone with ignorance of his laws largely to avoid sin by living ethically. If it is not then the laws are simply arbitrary. So what are the underlying principles on which God's laws are based?
by the Law, and those without will be thier own law, in addition to that they
will by their nature approve of law too. Meaning when you/I/others
condemn someone for doing X, we acknowledge X as true and we will be
judged by that judgment. Since God is love when we treat others outside
of that, we will end up condemning ourselves.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtYahshua (Jesus) knew the law and lived without sin, but ignorance of the law is no excuse for disobedience. In my opinion the underlying principles on which God's laws are based is righteousness and obedience to the will of God. 😏
That's a circular argument. If God is good then it should be possible for someone with ignorance of his laws largely to avoid sin by living ethically. If it is not then the laws are simply arbitrary. So what are the underlying principles on which God's laws are based?