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18 Nov 18
A friend here recently shared the following thoughts with me which I thought warranted a thread of its own. (He may appear to contribute, but won't name him in case he doesn't).
'The Neck of the Giraffe' (written by Francis Hitching) postulates that evolution of species has not and certainly has not always been a slow, gradual and incremental thing, but rather has happened in a more sudden and dramatic way. Further, the theory goes that cataclysmic geological events may have been responsible, which have caused mass extinctions, and have 'shocked' the collective gene pool into producing offspring which don't resemble their parents. The book calls these offspring 'hopeful monsters', the vast majority of which did not survive, but those that had some advantage over their contemporaries did so. The giraffe is cited as an example. There is plenty of fossil evidence for giraffe - like creatures, with short necks and short legs, and then there are giraffes, but there is no fossil evidence for intermediate giraffes. In other words it appears that long-necked giraffes appeared suddenly,
Having long legs and a long neck, our hopeful monster giraffe would have been able to reach higher branches and so on, so this characteristic came to dominate the gene pool and so the species.
It's an interesting theory, at least, and purports to explain huge gaps in the fossil record. '
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou have a lot of faith for a person of no faith.
A friend here recently shared the following thoughts with me which I thought warranted a thread of its own. (He may appear to contribute, but won't name him in case he doesn't).
'The Neck of the Giraffe' (written by Francis Hitching) postulates that evolution of species has not and certainly has not always been a slow, gradual and incremental thing, but rather has ...[text shortened]... s.
It's an interesting theory, at least, and purports to explain huge gaps in the fossil record. '
18 Nov 18
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIt’s natural selection within a species and can happen over a few generations.
A friend here recently shared the following thoughts with me which I thought warranted a thread of its own. (He may appear to contribute, but won't name him in case he doesn't).
'The Neck of the Giraffe' (written by Francis Hitching) postulates that evolution of species has not and certainly has not always been a slow, gradual and incremental thing, but rather has ...[text shortened]... s.
It's an interesting theory, at least, and purports to explain huge gaps in the fossil record. '
@divegeester saidOr.....the giraffe was 'created' just as it is.
It’s natural selection within a species and can happen over a few generations.
@chaney3 saidUnlikely as it’s neck bears many signs of selective development such as one of its major nerves which runs the length of the neck simply because it was originally designed to pass through cartilage which was originally a long way from where it is in the current iteration.
Or.....the giraffe was 'created' just as it is.
Can’t remember the name of it but you can look it up if you are interested.
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@divegeester saidDesigned as a giraffe, yes. Variations over time but is still a giraffe.
Unlikely as it’s neck bears many signs of selective development such as one of its major nerves which runs the length of the neck simply because it was originally designed to pass through cartilage which was originally a long way from where it is in the current iteration.
Can’t remember the name of it but you can look it up if you are interested.
@divegeester saidThere's a quote out there that goes something like:
Unlikely as it’s neck bears many signs of selective development such as one of its major nerves which runs the length of the neck simply because it was originally designed to pass through cartilage which was originally a long way from where it is in the current iteration.
Can’t remember the name of it but you can look it up if you are interested.
"Life originating from nothing is equivalent to a tornado passing through a junkyard and assembling a fully functioning jumbo jet when it has passed".
Life did not come from nothing.
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@wolfgang59 saidLol. The best example? Which examples are worse and why?
The giraffe is one of the best examples of an
"undesigned" creature for various anatomical reasons.
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@divegeester saidYes, that's the usual understanding, but I quite like the notion that, 'cataclysmic geological events may have been responsible, which have caused mass extinctions, and have 'shocked' the collective gene pool into producing offspring which don't resemble their parents.' I also rather like the term 'hopeful monsters.'
It’s natural selection within a species and can happen over a few generations.
Have added that book to my reading list. (Especially now that I know it irritates Becker).
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSo this destroys evolution requires small changes over time, instead a lifeform can
Yes, that's the usual understanding, but I quite like the notion that, 'cataclysmic geological events may have been responsible, which have caused mass extinctions, and have 'shocked' the collective gene pool into producing offspring which don't resemble their parents.' I also rather like the term 'hopeful monsters.'
Have added that book to my reading list. (Especially now that I know it irritates Becker).
just arrive because of a special event, as long as that event isn't a creator, creating?
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18 Nov 18
@kellyjay saidAre you suggesting that?
So this destroys evolution requires small changes over time, instead a lifeform can
just arrive because of a special event, as long as that event isn't a creator, creating?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidUnlike the guy I'm asking you to watch I don't call myself an Intelligent Design
Are you suggesting that?
believer, I'm a creationist, a young earth creationist to be very specific. I agree
with those that do accept ID because I think it is there, but I don't agree millions
of years were required. Looking at what is needed, having more time isn't a good
thing, it would be very bad if we are looking for random things needing to come
together in the same place, at the same time, in the proper amounts and
conditions in optimal settings and so on.
After spending 20 years in R&D working on the next generation of CPU, timing is
everything, you must have all the right things in the proper place doing the
necessary work to get what is required. If there is a crap shoot on anything
necessary, your CPU will not be able to function let alone produce what is desired.
More time only means more things can go wrong, so for me it’s all about
windows of opportunities when it all comes together properly!
1. If there is anything lacking that is required everything else is meaningless.
2. If the proper amounts are not mixed at the proper time it is all meaningless.
3. If everything all arrives at the same place, at the same time, and the
environment isn’t favorable but prohibitive it is all meaningless.
So many things all must line up its mind boggling, but some believe it's because
they think time is the answer, countless chances mean success. This is a huge
assumption, it assumes all these things can occur without direct intervention as if
life were but a huge combination for a lock, just tweak the numbers over and over
and at some point, no matter how long it takes, the lock will open. I don’t see this
as something that can be shown true, only accepted on faith.
These “hopeful monsters” of yours are an abomination to small changes over time,
instead they reek of an explosion of new genetic code (information) being
introduced into the gene pools by an event that has no guiding force behind
them. So not only didn't everything die, instead the dice for life was thrown and
immediately life not only continues through this huge event, we also have all of
these new monsters that were not brought about by slow changes in DNA
overlong periods of time.
Not very consistent concerning the theory of small changes over time if you ask
me. An event like that would disprove it in my opinion not enhance the validity
of it.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThumbs down.
A friend here recently shared the following thoughts with me which I thought warranted a thread of its own. (He may appear to contribute, but won't name him in case he doesn't).
'The Neck of the Giraffe' (written by Francis Hitching) postulates that evolution of species has not and certainly has not always been a slow, gradual and incremental thing, but rather has ...[text shortened]... s.
It's an interesting theory, at least, and purports to explain huge gaps in the fossil record. '
Life was created.
Science cannot offer any better.
18 Nov 18
@wolfgang59 saidNo such thing as an example of "undesigned" creature, the notion of design or
The giraffe is one of the best examples of an
"undesigned" creature for various anatomical reasons.
accidental formation is the topic of debate/discussion. Seeing a creature living
doesn't mean it can used to prove one opinion over the other just by it being
there. If any deviation occurs within species anywhere large or small, they could
have a huge impact upon several key systems. The whole doesn't just change all
at once keeping everything intact, unless of course you think something guided
this process?
You suggesting instead of small changes over time there were giant leaps
affecting all systems at once, yet managed to keep everything in a fine tuned state
and all of that done haphazardly?