1. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    18 Nov '18 17:47
    A friend here recently shared the following thoughts with me which I thought warranted a thread of its own. (He may appear to contribute, but won't name him in case he doesn't).

    'The Neck of the Giraffe' (written by Francis Hitching) postulates that evolution of species has not and certainly has not always been a slow, gradual and incremental thing, but rather has happened in a more sudden and dramatic way. Further, the theory goes that cataclysmic geological events may have been responsible, which have caused mass extinctions, and have 'shocked' the collective gene pool into producing offspring which don't resemble their parents. The book calls these offspring 'hopeful monsters', the vast majority of which did not survive, but those that had some advantage over their contemporaries did so. The giraffe is cited as an example. There is plenty of fossil evidence for giraffe - like creatures, with short necks and short legs, and then there are giraffes, but there is no fossil evidence for intermediate giraffes. In other words it appears that long-necked giraffes appeared suddenly,

    Having long legs and a long neck, our hopeful monster giraffe would have been able to reach higher branches and so on, so this characteristic came to dominate the gene pool and so the species.
    It's an interesting theory, at least, and purports to explain huge gaps in the fossil record. '
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    18 Nov '18 17:57
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    A friend here recently shared the following thoughts with me which I thought warranted a thread of its own. (He may appear to contribute, but won't name him in case he doesn't).

    'The Neck of the Giraffe' (written by Francis Hitching) postulates that evolution of species has not and certainly has not always been a slow, gradual and incremental thing, but rather has ...[text shortened]... s.
    It's an interesting theory, at least, and purports to explain huge gaps in the fossil record. '
    You have a lot of faith for a person of no faith.
  3. Devonshire
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    18 Nov '18 18:071 edit
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    A friend here recently shared the following thoughts with me which I thought warranted a thread of its own. (He may appear to contribute, but won't name him in case he doesn't).

    'The Neck of the Giraffe' (written by Francis Hitching) postulates that evolution of species has not and certainly has not always been a slow, gradual and incremental thing, but rather has ...[text shortened]... s.
    It's an interesting theory, at least, and purports to explain huge gaps in the fossil record. '
    It’s natural selection within a species and can happen over a few generations.
  4. Standard memberchaney3
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    18 Nov '18 18:09
    @divegeester said
    It’s natural selection within a species and can happen over a few generations.
    Or.....the giraffe was 'created' just as it is.
  5. Devonshire
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    18 Nov '18 18:241 edit
    @chaney3 said
    Or.....the giraffe was 'created' just as it is.
    Unlikely as it’s neck bears many signs of selective development such as one of its major nerves which runs the length of the neck simply because it was originally designed to pass through cartilage which was originally a long way from where it is in the current iteration.

    Can’t remember the name of it but you can look it up if you are interested.
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    18 Nov '18 18:35
    @divegeester said
    Unlikely as it’s neck bears many signs of selective development such as one of its major nerves which runs the length of the neck simply because it was originally designed to pass through cartilage which was originally a long way from where it is in the current iteration.

    Can’t remember the name of it but you can look it up if you are interested.
    Designed as a giraffe, yes. Variations over time but is still a giraffe.
  7. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    18 Nov '18 18:36
    @chaney3 said
    Or.....the giraffe was 'created' just as it is.
    The giraffe is one of the best examples of an
    "undesigned" creature for various anatomical reasons.
  8. Standard memberchaney3
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    18 Nov '18 18:39
    @divegeester said
    Unlikely as it’s neck bears many signs of selective development such as one of its major nerves which runs the length of the neck simply because it was originally designed to pass through cartilage which was originally a long way from where it is in the current iteration.

    Can’t remember the name of it but you can look it up if you are interested.
    There's a quote out there that goes something like:

    "Life originating from nothing is equivalent to a tornado passing through a junkyard and assembling a fully functioning jumbo jet when it has passed".

    Life did not come from nothing.
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    18 Nov '18 18:471 edit
    @wolfgang59 said
    The giraffe is one of the best examples of an
    "undesigned" creature for various anatomical reasons.
    Lol. The best example? Which examples are worse and why?
  10. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    18 Nov '18 19:10
    @divegeester said
    It’s natural selection within a species and can happen over a few generations.
    Yes, that's the usual understanding, but I quite like the notion that, 'cataclysmic geological events may have been responsible, which have caused mass extinctions, and have 'shocked' the collective gene pool into producing offspring which don't resemble their parents.' I also rather like the term 'hopeful monsters.'

    Have added that book to my reading list. (Especially now that I know it irritates Becker).
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    18 Nov '18 19:41
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    Yes, that's the usual understanding, but I quite like the notion that, 'cataclysmic geological events may have been responsible, which have caused mass extinctions, and have 'shocked' the collective gene pool into producing offspring which don't resemble their parents.' I also rather like the term 'hopeful monsters.'

    Have added that book to my reading list. (Especially now that I know it irritates Becker).
    So this destroys evolution requires small changes over time, instead a lifeform can
    just arrive because of a special event, as long as that event isn't a creator, creating?
  12. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    18 Nov '18 19:47
    @kellyjay said
    So this destroys evolution requires small changes over time, instead a lifeform can
    just arrive because of a special event, as long as that event isn't a creator, creating?
    Are you suggesting that?
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    18 Nov '18 21:003 edits
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    Are you suggesting that?
    Unlike the guy I'm asking you to watch I don't call myself an Intelligent Design
    believer, I'm a creationist, a young earth creationist to be very specific. I agree
    with those that do accept ID because I think it is there, but I don't agree millions
    of years were required. Looking at what is needed, having more time isn't a good
    thing, it would be very bad if we are looking for random things needing to come
    together in the same place, at the same time, in the proper amounts and
    conditions in optimal settings and so on.

    After spending 20 years in R&D working on the next generation of CPU, timing is
    everything, you must have all the right things in the proper place doing the
    necessary work to get what is required. If there is a crap shoot on anything
    necessary, your CPU will not be able to function let alone produce what is desired.
    More time only means more things can go wrong, so for me it’s all about
    windows of opportunities when it all comes together properly!

    1. If there is anything lacking that is required everything else is meaningless.
    2. If the proper amounts are not mixed at the proper time it is all meaningless.
    3. If everything all arrives at the same place, at the same time, and the
    environment isn’t favorable but prohibitive it is all meaningless.

    So many things all must line up its mind boggling, but some believe it's because
    they think time is the answer, countless chances mean success. This is a huge
    assumption, it assumes all these things can occur without direct intervention as if
    life were but a huge combination for a lock, just tweak the numbers over and over
    and at some point, no matter how long it takes, the lock will open. I don’t see this
    as something that can be shown true, only accepted on faith.

    These “hopeful monsters” of yours are an abomination to small changes over time,
    instead they reek of an explosion of new genetic code (information) being
    introduced into the gene pools by an event that has no guiding force behind
    them. So not only didn't everything die, instead the dice for life was thrown and
    immediately life not only continues through this huge event, we also have all of
    these new monsters that were not brought about by slow changes in DNA
    overlong periods of time.

    Not very consistent concerning the theory of small changes over time if you ask
    me. An event like that would disprove it in my opinion not enhance the validity
    of it.
  14. Standard memberchaney3
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    18 Nov '18 21:41
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    A friend here recently shared the following thoughts with me which I thought warranted a thread of its own. (He may appear to contribute, but won't name him in case he doesn't).

    'The Neck of the Giraffe' (written by Francis Hitching) postulates that evolution of species has not and certainly has not always been a slow, gradual and incremental thing, but rather has ...[text shortened]... s.
    It's an interesting theory, at least, and purports to explain huge gaps in the fossil record. '
    Thumbs down.
    Life was created.
    Science cannot offer any better.
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    18 Nov '18 21:58
    @wolfgang59 said
    The giraffe is one of the best examples of an
    "undesigned" creature for various anatomical reasons.
    No such thing as an example of "undesigned" creature, the notion of design or
    accidental formation is the topic of debate/discussion. Seeing a creature living
    doesn't mean it can used to prove one opinion over the other just by it being
    there. If any deviation occurs within species anywhere large or small, they could
    have a huge impact upon several key systems. The whole doesn't just change all
    at once keeping everything intact, unless of course you think something guided
    this process?

    You suggesting instead of small changes over time there were giant leaps
    affecting all systems at once, yet managed to keep everything in a fine tuned state
    and all of that done haphazardly?
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