Originally posted by RJHinds
You need to stop trying to make excuses and accept the fact that you deserve eternal punishment.

Why do you think you deserve eternal punishment? Why do you think that God even thinks in such terms?

I have no reason at all to "make excuses".

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Belief in Jesus Christ isn't 'my call'; I cannot decide to believe in him." -SG

"cannot" or will not.... either way, there's no coercion from God or man; you own the decision and its consequences.

It's not a decision. Stop and think about it for a bit instead of driving in the usual tire tracks.

Originally posted by vistesd
Well, Robert, I’ll let you continue, since you indicated “to be cont’d”—and that’s certainly fair.

But I want to say that where you seem to be headed is [b]particular theological applications of the word, which I have suggested might be problematic (1) if they are based on a misinterpretation of the original meaning of the word, ...[text shortened]... ially within a biblical context.

But, as I say, I will let you continue—as that is only fair.[/b]

Here are two site definitions which I dismissed earlier this evening as less than on target:

"Sin:" http://www.dabhand.org/Word%20Studies/sin.htm (in depth and lengthy)

"In Abrahamic contexts, sin is the act of violating God's will. Sin can also be viewed as anything that violates the ideal relationship between an individual and God; or as any diversion from the ideal order for human living. Sin has been defined as "to miss the mark".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"But I want to say that where you seem to be headed is particular theological applications of the word, which I have suggested might be problematic (1) if they are based on a misinterpretation of the original meaning of the word..." vistesd

Fully agree that context matters greatly; sometime it may be divorced from a conversation though not always. Yo ...[text shortened]... I'd welcome a summary of the precise meanings you hoped I'd furnish; then I'll respond. Thanks.

Perhaps I owe you an apology. It seems that I ended up pre-empting your thoughts, as I pursue my own thoughts in the context of your OP.

And I am shamelessly using these threads right now to pursue my own thoughts—“out loud”, as it were, in order to take advantage of others’ comments, even if they are generally opposed to my own.

In the process, I was perhaps guilty of second-guessing where you were going. (I’ve been on these threads for so many years, and have seen so many theological arguments.)

To try to sum my thoughts in this thread (at a late and tired hour): either “original sin”, “sin nature”, or—as I prefer to interpret those concepts, according to my understanding of the root word—existential fallibility—either that goes “down to the ground” or it doesn’t. If it goes down to the ground, then the very ability to choose, to exercise so-called “free will”—to believe this or that, or for any other decision—is thereby impaired. Therefore, it is possible (perhaps probable) that people will choose wrongly with no moral fault at all. And if there is no moral fault, then neither justice nor love (agape) are served by eternal reward or condemnation, based on that “choice” to believe. (Unless those concepts take on either no comprehensible meaning, or some “bizarro” meaning.)

And, if that existential fallibility does not go “down to the ground”, on what grounds (no pun intended) do we decide where that existential fallibility is absent—e.g., “free will”?

The Calvinist answer to this dilemma (as I understand it) is “double predestination”: some people are predestined to paradise, some to hell—and there’s nothing to do (except hope that you are one of the elect). If someone is there, then we’re just at impasse.

I think there is another answer, in part based on Greek Orthodox thought—but I am still working it through for myself. And I have a lot of lost ground to cover, since I have not participated in this paradigm—which I’ll call “Christic”, rather than “Christian”, just to avoid those arguments—for quite awhile (I suspect there are only a handful of people on here who can recall when I spent most of my time in this paradigm).

But a big error, I think, is to assume that the biblical texts are as clearcut and singular on some of these matters as our particular theologies (or philosophies) and inherited doctrines would like to pretend that they are! Or that our favorite translations, with theological commentary pretend that they are!

Again, I apologize for pre-empting your thought.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
It's not a decision. Stop and think about it for a bit instead of driving in the usual tire tracks.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
It's not a decision. Stop and think about it for a bit instead of driving in the usual tire tracks.
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"PM from KOP 2" Thread 157827 (Page one)

Originally posted by SwissGambit
"The rest of your post is just typical Evangelical Christian cliches. I was a Christian for 20 years. You aren't telling me anything I don't already know with this stuff."

"I was a Christian for 20 years..." and then made a decision not to be a Christian any longer? Someone else decide?

Originally posted by vistesd
Perhaps I owe you an apology. It seems that I ended up pre-empting your thoughts, as I pursue my own thoughts in the context of your OP.

And I am shamelessly using these threads right now to pursue my own thoughts—“out loud”, as it were, in order to take advantage of others’ comments, even if they are generally opposed to my own.

In the process, I ...[text shortened]... heological commentary pretend that they are!

Again, I apologize for pre-empting your thought.

With apology for the fact that it's midnight @ GMT-6 and I'm fatigued. Let's resume on Tuesday. Thanks for today.

Originally posted by vistesd
Why do you think you deserve eternal punishment? Why do you think that God even thinks in such terms?

I have no reason at all to "make excuses".

Because we have all sinned against the eternal God.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Belief in Jesus Christ isn't 'my call'; I cannot decide to believe in him.

Yes, the main device they gave you for winning souls is faulty. I know it's going to take some time to adjust to that after years of repetition. Don't worry; I'll be here to remind you periodically that we don't get to just choose what we want to believe.

Here in the US, the Powerball lottery has reached a dizzying height of $400 million (US), making it the sixth highest prize in lottery history should a winner be found on the next draw, Wednesday February 19.

That cash pay out is $227 million.
$227.8 million, actually.
That $.8 million is nearly six times my yearly salary, so the $227 million would be gravy, as they say.
I've spent the entirety of the prize, in my head.
Figured out a way to get a minimum of 10% interest on the principle.
Figured out how much the capital gains tax would be on the interest made.
Figured out how much is left over, how much I'd have to spend every month of that first year.
Figured out that I'd run out of interest in things to buy way before the end of that year--- at over $1.2 million a month, your imagination starts to sputter.

There's all the bills to pay off, of course.
House, cars, some back taxes, miscellaneous amounts here and there.
About eight days into it (maybe nine) I'm literally debt free, as in, not a single person anywhere on the face of the planet can say I owe them anything.
I've got five days more before the second week is up...

So I reserve my 2014 Audi A7, oolong gray metallic.
That's a great way to round off the second week, right?

Seven more days at $30,000/day, and I will have burned through the first month of $1.2 million.
I've got six kids' colleges to pay for, so maybe we call week four of month one "Kids' College Fund."
What am I going to do in months two through 12?
Of year one?

Seriously, though: does anyone here really believe I'm going to win the lottery?
I don't.

I dream about what I'd do with it; come up with a ton of elaborate spreadsheets and financial planning systems to help me navigate my way through capital gains taxes and the like.
I go shopping with my imaginary winnings, but at the end of the day, I know--- literally KNOW--- I ain't winning crap.

But I still buy a ticket every week.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Because we have all sinned against the eternal God.

I don’t know what your personal “sins” are (nor do I care to know)—and, in the context of this thread, I don’t know what you think the word “sin” means.

But I’m pretty sure that they don’t merit eternal punishment—and I think that a whole lot of very popular theologies have got it wrong as to how god views it. And that will not make me very popular with all the people that have grown up with, or have otherwise been convinced, that those theologies “must be” the truth—and whose sense of security depends on those beliefs being certain. And I don’t expect to “win” any of those discussions.

I just chip away at them.

I wouldn’t condemn you to eternal punishment (maybe a few years?)—and I doubt that I am as gracious as the god you believe in . (Although maybe you think that I am.)

Originally posted by FreakyKBH

But I still buy a ticket every week.

Interesting. Faith as some some kind of non-epistemic existential attitude--even in the face of all the countervailing evidence?

To draw on a sports analogy, I think Phil Mickelson demonstrates something akin to that just about every week. (And I'm not being either dismissive or flip.)

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EDIT: Also far from any notion of Pascal's wager.

Originally posted by vistesd
Interesting. Faith as some some kind of non-epistemic existential attitude--even in the face of all the countervailing evidence?

To draw on a sports analogy, I think Phil Mickelson demonstrates something akin to that just about every week. (And I'm not being either dismissive or flip.)

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EDIT: Also far from any notion of Pascal's wager.

We believe it's too good to be true.
We believe it couldn't happen to us.
We believe it could only happen to us if we plunk our money down.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
We believe it's too good to be true.
We believe it couldn't happen to us.
We believe it could only happen to us if we plunk our money down.

Now, good sir: what are the odds that I, without reading your post related to the topic of Powerball two hours earlier, would consider the topic enough to use it for my kindling?

Originally posted by vistesd
Perhaps I owe you an apology. It seems that I ended up pre-empting your thoughts, as I pursue my own thoughts in the context of your OP.

And I am shamelessly using these threads right now to pursue my own thoughts—“out loud”, as it were, in order to take advantage of others’ comments, even if they are generally opposed to my own.

In the process, I ...[text shortened]... heological commentary pretend that they are!

Again, I apologize for pre-empting your thought.

Though I appreciate your courtesy, apologizing is unnecessary. My hope was that we could arrive at gnosis/epignosis type building blocks of agreement but now realize polarized subliminal mindsets all but negate that option. Instead, let's skin these deliberations naked by returning to the concluding sentence of the OP. In your view, what is the "The Only Issue" in context? If this question seems suffocating, what sententious 'cave wall graffiti' type ultimate issue would you pose?

Edit Note: Perhaps basic questions [such as a) Does God exist? b) If so, has He revealed Himself? c) Does He have a plan for the human race which includes me? d) If so, do I owe God hearing?] might lend direction (I'm merely thinking aloud).

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
But I still buy a ticket every week.

So can we take away from your story that:
1. You behave illogically and know it.
2. You follow a religion for the same illogical reason.

Can you also clarify:
a) which lotteries you participate in and how you decide.
b) which religions you participate in, and how you decided.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by SwissGambit
[b]It's not a decision. Stop and think about it for a bit instead of driving in the usual tire tracks.
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"PM from KOP 2" Thread 157827 (Page one)

Originally posted by SwissGambit
"The rest of your post is just typical Evangelical Christian cli ...[text shortened]... for 20 years..." and then made a decision not to be a Christian any longer? Someone else decide?[/b]

Maybe this would be easier if I made a list.

*** STUFF I DECIDED RE: NOT BEING A CHRISTIAN ANYMORE ***
I decided to stop going to church.
I decided to quit praying.
I decided to accept sources of morality other than the Bible.

*** STUFF I DID NOT DECIDE ***
I no longer believed there was a heaven and a hell.
I no longer believed there was a God, or supernatural Jesus, or plan of redemption for our souls. Also, no longer thought there was a need for redemption of our souls. Also, no longer thought we had souls at all.
I no longer believed that everything the Bible claimed was morally wrong was actually wrong.