The point of the tree of good and evil?

Originally posted by galveston75
So why does all knowing mean that you know the future? Where in the bible does it say that he knows the future? Or do the scriptures simple describe him making the future work out for his plans?

The tree of good and evil is a slick story told generations ago to explain why we suffer with such a loving god. Trees bear fruit not traps. This is the first clue it is just a story. The american indians tell many tales to describe things in the world. Different tribes have different tales to describe the same thing. The tree of good and evil basically says that two people chose it for all of us and that you cant know good and evil without experiencing both. Of course god loves us and told us not to eat from it but it is our fault we now have evil in our lives. The belief system is patched effectively with the story and we can now move on with more teachings and control. So effective it was that some folks still believe the tree was literal.

Originally posted by joe beyser
The tree of good and evil is a slick story told generations ago to explain why we suffer with such a loving god. Trees bear fruit not traps. This is the first clue it is just a story. The american indians tell many tales to describe things in the world. Different tribes have different tales to describe the same thing. The tree of good and evil basically s ...[text shortened]... e teachings and control. So effective it was that some folks still believe the tree was literal.

Well as easily as some say it was not a real tree, it is as easy to ask how do you know it wasn't real? What proof do you have? Why would God not use something that no doubt blended in with the surroundings, something they would be used to seeing, something that would not stand out and look like a pot of gold? If it had been something out of the ordinary then it could be called a trap but then that may have not be fair..Right?
So again I ask...why should God not put restrictions on them and use something as simple as a tree?
And for the fact that so many peoples of the world have this story in their histories, only confirm that it had to be true.

Originally posted by galveston75
So why does all knowing mean that you know the future? Where in the bible does it say that he knows the future? Or do the scriptures simple describe him making the future work out for his plans?

LOL G75 come on it's in the description "All knowing" Or knowing all. Ok than God is not all knowing then. By your description of course.



PS Cowboys playing?? Seattle getting tore up!!




Manny

Originally posted by joe beyser
The tree of good and evil is a slick story told generations ago to explain why we suffer with such a loving god. Trees bear fruit not traps. This is the first clue it is just a story. The american indians tell many tales to describe things in the world. Different tribes have different tales to describe the same thing. The tree of good and evil basically s ...[text shortened]... e teachings and control. So effective it was that some folks still believe the tree was literal.

I think that the origins of man on this earth are rooted in the supernatural. And these two sources represented by two trees were used to establish man's relationship to the supernatural source.

Before I dismiss the matter I have to consider that there were other physical objects in the Old Testament which God gave intructions to Israel about. How they carried out these intructions toward physical things could mean their life or death. The example of the ark of the covenant is a good example.

It was to be handled only by the Levitical priests in a particular reverencial way. When I well meaning non-priest carelessly disregarded the divine command, and put out his hand to keep it from falling off of a ox cart, he died (2 Samuel 6:6,7).

There is the history of the misuse, capture, and recovery of the physical ark of the covenant in Second Samuel.

My point here is that for education purposes as physical object was used to convey profound spiritual meanings. If not permanently so, at least temporarily so. Up to a point we hear not much about either the tree of life or the ark in physical terms. Yet we continue to learn from them in symbolism until the end of the Bible.

So it is not easy for me, after much consideration, to discount that God could use two specially appointed physical trees to establish truth prinicples for man throughout the rest of his history.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well as easily as some say it was not a real tree, it is as easy to ask how do you know it wasn't real? What proof do you have? Why would God not use something that no doubt blended in with the surroundings, something they would be used to seeing, something that would not stand out and look like a pot of gold? If it had been something out of the ordinary ...[text shortened]... y peoples of the world have this story in their histories, only confirm that it had to be true.

Throw a woman into the mix and poor old Adam was trapped🙂. Knowledge is referred to as food. Consuming knowledge of good and evil means learning good and bad. You can't learn bad if you never have seen it. Just a good way to explain why things are the way they are and keep belief systems intact. Why would anyone take it as literal? Does the bible not use parables to explain things? If you want proof of it not being a literal tree I would say prove it was. It is pretty hard to do either way when the info comes to us from man written books of the bible. First we must prove it is inspired from god and go from there. We know that the story exists and has for generations. That is all anyone really knows isn't it? Belief and knowing are two different things.

The other matter which makes it difficult for me dismiss the origin of man actually eating something which he should not have is Paul's diagnoses of "the body of sin" in the book of Romans. Something seems to have gotten into man's body ro transmute it and corrupt it.

Evidences of from the Apostle Paul:

1.) "Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey the body's lust" (Rom. 6:12)

There is a problem in "the mortal body"

2.) For when we were in the flesh, the passions for sins, which acted through the law, operated in our members to bear fruit to death." (Rom. 7:5)[/b]

There is a problem operating in the "members" of the physical body.

3.) "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshly, sold under sin" (Rom. 7:14)

Fleshly verses spiritual.

4.) "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells ..."

Someting evil dwells in his fallen flesh.

These are just a few verses to show that there is some kind of problem with the fallen body. When did this begin to happen if not when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ?

That is when something entered into his being, probably even his body transmuting it to the fallen flesh of sin.

Originally posted by menace71
LOL G75 come on it's in the description "All knowing" Or knowing all. Ok than God is not all knowing then. By your description of course.



PS Cowboys playing?? Seattle getting tore up!!




Manny

Well again I simply ask show me where it states in the Bible that God see's all in the future?

And I'm just watching the score of the Dallas game online...Not on TV here.... 🙁 Only West coast teams on here today.

Let me ask you a question.... If God could see all in the future and how things were going to turn out either good or bad, why does the bible state as in the case of humans before the flood and how they had turned out with doing bad all the time, why did he feel remorse, regret and hurt that he had created them? According to you he would have already known that outcome and it would seem silly to create humans had he known it was going to hurt him?
Would you or any of us have children if we knew positivley that in the future they were going to turn out to be a murderer or a rapist?
Think Manny.....

Originally posted by jaywill
The [b]tree of life is a source of man's dependence upon God his Creator. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represented man withdrawing from his Creator to be independent.

All life is dependent upon God. Only God is autonomous. All His creatures are dependent upon Him. He is the eternal necessary Being. All other beings are contingent upon G ...[text shortened]... on against his Source. It began a cascading and dynamic degradation into sin, death, and ruin.[/b]

Sure that is what the story has become and developed into. My money would go to a grandchild asking gramps why there are mosquitoes if god loved them so much and out popped this story.

Originally posted by joe beyser
Sure that is what the story has become and developed into. My money would go to a grandchild asking gramps why there are mosquitoes if god loved them so much and out popped this story.

This is not a serious obstacle to me for a couple of reasons:

The economical way the account is told probably indicates there is a good deal of other associated phenomenon connected to it which are not detailed at that telling. But they are hinted at elsewhere in Scripture related.

For the ground to be cursed may mean a whole lot more than we can appreciated by the sparse details of the account.


For example, the viciousness of animals bitting and eating one another seemed to develop after this fall of Adam. They were all assigned to be vegetarian from the early creation. Latter they began to eat one another. Compare Genesis 1:29 - 30 with Genesis 9:2,3.

In the discreption of the millennial kingdom to emerge at the second coming of Christ we are told of carnivorous creatures eating vegitables. This seems to be a recovery to a previous situation. See Isaiah 11:4-6.

Now I do not claim to understand everything about this. But my guess is that blood sucking was something related to the curse which eventually made animals eat one another whereas they were originally created to be vegetarians.

Then there is the problem of evidence of carnivorousness in the very ancient past. I am inclinded to when the Bible says that sin and death came in through Adam, the scope is limited. Previous to his existence sin and death scared the world under the being that became Satan.

I believe in free will but God still knows the outcome. Your right we have a choice but maybe God sees all possible outcomes. The very definition Alpha & Omega. Prophecy can't have it if God does not know the outcome already. People have children in the hopes that they will turn out well but still does not guarantee it.





Manny

Originally posted by menace71
I believe in free will but God still knows the outcome. Your right we have a choice but maybe God sees all possible outcomes. The very definition Alpha & Omega. Prophecy can't have it if God does not know the outcome already. People have children in the hopes that they will turn out well but still does not guarantee it.





Manny

Well I think the Alpha & Omega thing just means he has always been and will always be if I'm not mistaken.
Another question for you to think on is if God knew they would fail and sin, then that would have been his plan for that to happen, right? And if that was his plan from the beginning then he was lying when he said in Gen 1:31 that everything was good... ?????

Well I always thought one of the attributes of God was/is knowing all. So you believe that God does not know it all? Not knowing the future would be not knowing all. I personally believe God is outside of time. He is not bound by time. He sees yesterday the same as tomorrow. There is a good chapter in C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" that talks about this very subject. Our concept of time I think interferes with our comprehension of God. We try to place God in time.




Manny

Originally posted by menace71
I believe in free will but God still knows the outcome...

This cannot be possible. If I truly have free will God cannot know the outcome. There are many accounts in the Bible where God demonstrates that (s)he does not know what is about to happen.

Now it may be a nuanced point, but I would go along with the phrase that God knows the possible outcomes. I see Biblical support for that.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well I think the Alpha & Omega thing just means he has always been and will always be if I'm not mistaken.
Another question for you to think on is if God knew they would fail and sin, then that would have been his plan for that to happen, right? And if that was his plan from the beginning then he was lying when he said in Gen 1:31 that everything was good... ?????

Why was everything not very good? The man was created in the imake of God and commited with dominion. He was on guard and prepared. Any enemies of God were held in check as long as the man remained in submission to God.

Of course it was very good. Even the serpent could not do anything as long as Adam obeyed God. It was indeed all very good.

If you get hired for a job assigned some responsibilities with all the tools prepared for you to handle them, the empoyer has the right to say on you first day "This is all very good."

There was a line for Adam not to cross. As long as he stayed on the right side of the line, all was indeed very good.

Man was created in a neutral yet pristine condition. He was placed before the tree of life in the middle of the garden. If he partook of the tree of life the indwelling of God within man would commence. God's enemy was limited, held in powerless check as long as Adam did not partake of the tree that cried out for independence from God.

This triangle situation with God on one side and Satan on the other with the good and nuetral man inbetween with his free will to choose was all "very good" .

That is until the loving God had to come searching for Adam asking him "Where are you ?"

Originally posted by Badwater
This cannot be possible. If I truly have free will God cannot know the outcome. There are many accounts in the Bible where God demonstrates that (s)he does not know what is about to happen.

Now it may be a nuanced point, but I would go along with the phrase that God knows the possible outcomes. I see Biblical support for that.

Good points. The confusion we have about God knowing the future is that he has the power and wisdom to direct certian events he knows has to happen in order to have a certian outcome to accomplish his will.
The very first example of that is the scripture at Gen 3:15. God with his wisdom and with his forsight, knew that certain things would have to happen in the future for us to have the chance to get this thing that Adam had just lost for us and to cancel the effects of his failing. He knew that in the future that a perfect life had to be sacrificed in our behalf which of course was Jesus, and that would pave the way for humans to once again live as Adam and his offspring were meant to live.
This is really no different then some plan that we may make for the future such as a wedding. We are not God and can't imagine all that could affect this event from happening or not, and we certianly don't have the wisdom and ability he has but we still try to control what we can to make this event in the future happen.