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    01 Jan '07 07:231 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    So you are saying that Islam forbids suicide because their holy books forbid it under any circumstances even though Muslims scholars do not accept the teaching? That is sad to say the least, but I am glad you are not one of them.🙂

    I guess that is why it is important to know your holy book. Otherwise you become followers of the people who interpret the h ...[text shortened]... me problem only in terms of following perceived men of God rather than the words of God himself.
    I'm sorry ,may be I was not clear. Execuse me for my English.

    I mean according to Quran, Muslim Scholars don't accept suicide bombing, not Quran teaching, 🙂

    Sorry again....

    ----
    I will come back to you tomorrow .......
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    01 Jan '07 21:061 edit
    My be this out of the subject of the thread but I found something interesting I wanted to ask you about:

    Jesus say in Mark 1:15
    And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


    And in Matthew 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

    Which gospel Jesus is talking about here?, and if it is not one of the 4 gospels where is it?

    What I understand here that Jesus has some Gospel in his hand, don't you agree?
    -------------------------------------

    I will answer you but I found this and I wanted to know what do you think about it. Remember, I think these verses are so clear, there was a gospel at the time of Jesus...
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    02 Jan '07 03:30
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    I'm sorry ,may be I was not clear. Execuse me for my English.

    I mean according to Quran, Muslim Scholars don't accept suicide bombing, not Quran teaching, 🙂

    Sorry again....

    ----
    I will come back to you tomorrow .......
    I am glad that the scholars do not accept suicide bombing as a Quranic teaching. The problem is, however, that most people are not influenced by scholars, rather, they tend to be influenced by religious leaders who say that suicide bombings are accepted in Quranic teachings. As I said before, this is what happens when people follow after men who are religious leaders instead of God and the supposide holy texts that he talks to us with.
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    02 Jan '07 03:34
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    My be this out of the subject of the thread but I found something interesting I wanted to ask you about:

    Jesus say in Mark 1:15
    And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe [b]the gospel
    .

    [i]And in Matthew 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the wh ...[text shortened]... out it. Remember, I think these verses are so clear, there was a gospel at the time of Jesus...[/b]
    The term gospel can be translated "good news". So this gospel he was referring to was the good news that he preached. I do not believe them to have been written down during his lifetime, rather, it appears his teachings were first written down well after his time on earth. You see many within the Christian movement believed that the time of Chrsit's return to be short and within their lifetimes and therefore, did not think it necessary to at first write down many of his teachings because of this assumption.
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    02 Jan '07 16:07
    Originally posted by whodey
    This is a fair enough question and one with which many a Chrsitian has struggled with including myself. It reminds me of a story of some missionaries in the former Soviet Union who had an outreach back in the days of the KGB and the iron curtain. They had to meet secretly or be discovered and killed for illegal religious practices. It turned out that they ...[text shortened]... fraid to die? It was problematic for Rome to say the least and we see today the success it had.
    I don't see you answered my Question here.

    You gave me an example of what others did, but you didn't tell me what you will do?

    The other point is, where in the Bible did GOD say that he loves the unbelivers. What I see throughout the Bible that unbelivers are always punished. The punishment included every living even children and animals. How could this be a sign of love?

    --------------------------------------

    In my point of view this teaching (love your enimies) is hard to follow because it is not logical. GOD teaching can't be unlogical.
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    02 Jan '07 16:15
    Originally posted by whodey
    The term gospel can be translated "good news". So this gospel he was referring to was the good news that he preached. I do not believe them to have been written down during his lifetime, rather, it appears his teachings were first written down well after his time on earth. You see many within the Christian movement believed that the time of Chrsit's return ...[text shortened]... t think it necessary to at first write down many of his teachings because of this assumption.
    will it be rude to say that I was excpecting this answer from you?

    So, what is the GOOD NEWS he was preaching with?
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    02 Jan '07 17:011 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    If we choose to invite Christ into our lives he can save us. [...] Hell is merely a seperation from God and is what men choose. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Him hating us.
    I always thought of the bible as a collection of bedtime stories meant to
    teach our young ones certain lessons about life (or more like prepare
    them for certain eventualities).

    For instance, the idea that inviting Christ (the representation of good
    will and forgiveness) into your heart will save you from eternal
    condemnation in the hands of Satan (the representation of all that
    makes our lives miserable), is metaphorical in concept. If read literally,
    the point is sort of lost. So, in my eyes, it's more about finding some
    meaning to life (whatever that may be for you) and not worry so much
    about what everyone else is up to.

    It's about being able to truthfully say: "So what if my best friend just
    sold me out to get into the pants of the woman I love? Bah! Big deal."
    And in saying that, you realise that if the woman you adored fell for
    that old trick, then perhaps she's not who you fooled yourself into
    thinking she was. Time to move on then, to greater and better things,
    completely unaffected by the setback, and still as naive and innocent as
    ever you were.

    However, if, at this time, you allow yourself to be consumed by hatred
    and malice, seeking ways to revenge your hurt pride and restore it to it's
    former glory from the black pitthole of personal humiliation in which it
    now resides, you are condemning yourself to a lifetime of emotional
    pain, a constant reminder that he was better than you, and she had you
    completely fooled. That can only lead to trouble, mostly for you to
    begin with, but in the end, when you finally crack, people who happens to
    be around you (guilty of hurting you or not). On the other hand, if you
    say: "I forgive you" and get on with your life, leaving the past behind,
    everybody with a superficial view on life will see you as a loser. Of course,
    if you're able to do that, it won't matter what anyone else thinks.
    Because you've found strength in yourself. Enough so to get by without
    the love and tender care of the woman you thought you needed so
    much. You have found a higher and stronger form of love, and it rests
    securely on your ability to be ignorant towards the rest of the world. It
    relies on an undeniable sense of self worth. It works on the basis of you
    being a pronoid.

    (Women, feel free to substitute the woman you love with the man you
    love. No, really, please do. And love me.)

    So, Jesus is just a character representing a part of what it means to be
    an emotional being, not some entirely separate entity that will guide you
    in life from his throne up in the heavens. And only those who are weak
    inside needs to know that Jesus, God and the twelve little fairies of
    Simmerdale are "real" in the way that they can affect our physical world
    and not only our perception of it.

    Well, that's what I think. You feel free to take the bible (or your
    new Qur'an), literally, if you want to.
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    02 Jan '07 19:121 edit
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    I don't see you answered my Question here.

    You gave me an example of what others did, but you didn't tell me what you will do?

    The other point is, where in the Bible did GOD say that he loves the unbelivers. What I see throughout the Bible that unbelivers are always punished. The punishment included every living even children and animals. How could th ...[text shortened]... e your enimies) is hard to follow because it is not logical. GOD teaching can't be unlogical.
    What would I do? Well I guess I would hope that I would heed the example of Christ and not retalitate evil for evil as did his apostle Peter when he sliced off the ear of the Roman soldier who came to take his master to calvary. You see, it is very hard to know what one would do in certain siturations. For example, Christ's closest disciple Peter told him that he would never deny nor forsake him despite Christ telling him that he would, in fact, deny him three times. I believed Peter thought he was telling him the truth, but historically we know otherwise. You see, Christ knew the heart of Peter better than Peter knew his own heart.

    Let me ask you, do you or would you punish your children if you loved them or would you just turn your head and let them do their own thing? Proverbs 13:24 says the parent who spares the rod is, in fact, the one who hates his son and not the parent who chastens his son with the rod. In terms of destoying the wicked, it is God's judgement in terms of when it is time to take their lives so that fewer people suffer as a result of their choosing wickedness. It has little to do with hating them, however.

    As far as God loving the sinner, there are many verses in the Bible that command us to love those who do not love us. Titus 3:2 says, "Speak evil of no man, be not brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness to ALL men. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, decieved, serving diverse lusts, and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hatfull, and hating one another. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. I think the most famous verse is John 3:16 which says, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever should believe on him should not perish but have everlasting life. In the Old Testament Leviticus 19:18 says not to seek revenge for wrongdoing. We are told in the Bible not to seek revenge because vengence is mine says the Lord. The most blatant command to love your enemies comes from Chrsit, however, in Matthew 5:43-48 which I have already given. There is little question after reading this verse.

    As far as example, how about Luke 51-62? They go and preach to the people of Samaria but are rejected by unbelievers. His disciples then asked Christ if he would command fire to come down from heaven to destroy them for their unbelief. Jesus replies, "You know not what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."
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    02 Jan '07 19:17
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    will it be rude to say that I was excpecting this answer from you?

    So, what is the GOOD NEWS he was preaching with?
    The good news is that God has sent his Son to save us from our sins. Naturally you do not agree being a Muslim so what do you think was the "good news"? In other words, why did Christ come and what did he accomplish?
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    02 Jan '07 19:31
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    .....In my point of view this teaching (love your enimies) is hard to follow because it is not logical. GOD teaching can't be unlogical......
    Ahosyney! I am surprised at you! Why do you find it so hard to love your enemies? Have you not moved beyond the material world yet? Do you not think that God loves us all?

    (and why do you appear to set yourself up to decide what God's thinking is? Can you understand God's mind?)
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    02 Jan '07 22:283 edits
    Originally posted by stocken
    I always thought of the bible as a collection of bedtime stories meant to
    teach our young ones certain lessons about life (or more like prepare
    them for certain eventualities).

    For instance, the idea that inviting Christ (the representation of good
    will and forgiveness) into your heart will save you from eternal
    condemnation in the hands of Satan ou feel free to take the bible (or your
    new Qur'an), literally, if you want to.
    I understand where you are coming from but can I ask you a question? What influence, if any, does a text have in your life that you do not take literally or choose to believe as saying what it appears to be saying? In other words, I doubt the Bible has much sway in how you live your life because it is a book without absolutes or any meaning outside of how you choose to interpret it. As you say, it then becomes a collection of bedtime stories and I know of no bedtime stories that has changed my life in any way.

    The word of God is described as a two edged sword that cuts asunder, like a skilled surgeon, those things in our lives that are contrary to its teachings and are harmful to us. Some of these things are painful to cut out of our lives but in the long run we benefit. Therefore, if I did not believe the Bible to be literal, I would in no way choose to allow my life to changed based on what it says, rather, I would simply choose to interpret what it says based on how I wish to live my life in a path with the least possible resistance. However, the path in life that is perceived to be the easiest path to take, I have found to be usually the hardest path to take in the long run.
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    02 Jan '07 22:34
    Originally posted by snowinscotland
    Ahosyney! I am surprised at you! Why do you find it so hard to love your enemies? Have you not moved beyond the material world yet? Do you not think that God loves us all?

    (and why do you appear to set yourself up to decide what God's thinking is? Can you understand God's mind?)
    These are all very good questions and I am somewhat confused as to his position. At one point I pointed out that the Bible and the Quran are different in that the Bible commands us to love our enemies. He then gave me a verse in the Quran in another thread that said something to the effect that God MAY cause us to love our enemies but it was in no way a mandate to do so. I thought he gave me this verse in order to show that he to believes that we are to love our enemies as Christ commanded. I guess we can only wait for his response to clearify.
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    02 Jan '07 22:502 edits
    Originally posted by snowinscotland
    Ahosyney! I am surprised at you! Why do you find it so hard to love your enemies? Have you not moved beyond the material world yet? Do you not think that God loves us all?

    (and why do you appear to set yourself up to decide what God's thinking is? Can you understand God's mind?)
    I think this is some sort of a sarcasm here,


    Why do you find it so hard to love your enemies?
    🙂 I don't know, may be because I'm human, and humans tend not to love their enemies. The word enemy is an opposite to love, and combining two opposite is impossible.

    The Quranic verse I gave to whodey say the GOD may make our enimies friends. At that time we I will love them.

    Have you not moved beyond the material world yet?
    That is funny, I'm have and have, 🙂

    Do you not think that God loves us all?
    I belive that love us all as long as we belive in him. But if we don't belive in him then he don't love us.

    and why do you appear to set yourself up to decide what God's thinking is? Can you understand God's mind?

    I belive only in what GOD told me. The one who said "Love your enimies is not GOD" !!!!!
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    02 Jan '07 23:251 edit
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    I belive only in what GOD told me. The one who said "Love your enimies is not GOD" !!!!![/b]
    But what about what Christ commanded? I guess there are two options for you to take here. You either say that Christ was mistaken which would make him a false prophet or that his teachings have been corrupted which is what I think your position would probably be since you seem to believe Christ to be a real prophet of the true God. The problem then is that you are saying that to love your enemies is corrosive and corrupt. How can this be?
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    03 Jan '07 00:07
    Originally posted by whodey
    As you say, it then becomes a collection of bedtime stories and I know of no bedtime stories that has changed my life in any way.
    Are you kidding me? To get a written text on the level I suggest is much
    more influential than to think of it as an absolute truth. If you're
    suggesting that bedtime stories are just meaningless nonsense meant
    to help a child go to sleep, I'm afraid you're missing one important
    aspect of them. To teach things and to encourage independent thought
    (hopefully). And I don't think you can ever outgrow good bedtime
    stories. I love reading before I go to sleep. Rarely do they involve
    supernatural beings and the like, but they still serve the same basic
    purpose as those fairytales my mother used to read to me.

    So, unlike with you, bedtime stories has definitely helped shape me to
    the person I am today (whether I like that or not).
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