1. Colorado
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    21 Dec '05 06:231 edit
    What was the message of Jesus regarding his followers?

    In my experience I’ve found that the church is quick to condemn everybody as “hopeless sinners” citing Romans 3:22 “For all have sinned..." Even saved Christians are sinners who can never compare to Jesus.

    In the gospels Jesus seems to suggest that those who believe will one day become as he is, a Christ like saint.

    Matt 10:24-25 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his Lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his Lord…

    Jesus also mentions that his followers will one day do greater things then he did, so how did the hopeless sinner idea catch on?

    Are there Christians out there who believe that they will one day be perfect as Jesus is, or is the Christian community convinced that they will remain woefully inferior for all eternity?

    Can perfection ever be achieved here on earth as Jesus was perfect here on earth, or is this something that happens only after death?

    From what I understand verses like Romans 3:22 say that all have sinned. Are there any verses that say all will continue to sin? Why would Jesus bother to tell us not to sin if he knew that we are all hopeless sinners?
  2. Standard memberDavid C
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    21 Dec '05 06:26
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    Why would Jesus bother to tell us not to sin if he knew that we are all hopeless sinners?
    Because it's all fiction designed to make you less scared about life?
  3. Standard membertelerion
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    21 Dec '05 06:46
    Why would Jesus bother to tell us not to sin if he knew that we are all hopeless sinners?
    Because, as I've proposed many times here, a lot of people like to simulataneously mercilessly disparage and shamelessly promote themselves.
  4. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    21 Dec '05 08:071 edit
    Originally posted by telerion
    Because, as I've proposed many times here, a lot of people like to simulataneously mercilessly disparage and shamelessly promote themselves.
    This rings true. Do you have any examples in mind? And can this technique be used outside religious circles?
  5. London
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    21 Dec '05 13:00
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    What was the message of Jesus regarding his followers?

    In my experience I’ve found that the church is quick to condemn everybody as “hopeless sinners” citing Romans 3:22 “For all have sinned..." Even saved Christians are sinners who can never compare to Jesus.

    In the gospels Jesus seems to suggest that those who believe will one day become ...[text shortened]... o sin? Why would Jesus bother to tell us not to sin if he knew that we are all hopeless sinners?
    In my experience I’ve found that the church is quick to condemn everybody as “hopeless sinners” ... Are there Christians out there who believe that they will one day be perfect as Jesus is, or is the Christian community convinced that they will remain woefully inferior for all eternity?

    Look up the Catholic concept of "justification". And no Christian believes we are "hopeless" sinners - we always hope in God's mercy.

    Can perfection ever be achieved here on earth as Jesus was perfect here on earth, or is this something that happens only after death?

    It's possible - but unlikely. It will certainly happen after death.

    Why would Jesus bother to tell us not to sin if he knew that we are all hopeless sinners?

    Because we must keep trying.
  6. Colorado
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    22 Dec '05 01:092 edits
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    In my experience I’ve found that the church is quick to condemn everybody as “hopeless sinners” ... Are there Christians out there who believe that they will one day be perfect as Jesus is, or is the Christian community convinced that they will remain woefully inferior for all eternity?[/b]

    Look up the Catholic concept of "justification". And ...[text shortened]... tell us not to sin if he knew that we are all hopeless sinners?[/b]

    Because we must keep trying.
    Look up the Catholic concept of "justification". And no Christian believes we are "hopeless" sinners - we always hope in God's mercy.

    If you could summarize it for me I’d appreciate it. The churches that I have attended referred to people as being hopeless sinners in the sense that we cannot help but sin, not that God will never forgive us.

    It's possible - but unlikely. It will certainly happen after death.

    So you believe that some may in fact become like Christ here on earth, and the rest after they leave their body?
  7. Colorado
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    22 Dec '05 01:16
    Originally posted by David C
    Because it's all fiction designed to make you less scared about life?
    This is easy to say, but it doesn’t convince or explain much.
  8. Colorado
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    22 Dec '05 01:19
    Originally posted by telerion
    Because, as I've proposed many times here, a lot of people like to simulataneously mercilessly disparage and shamelessly promote themselves.
    I’ve noticed the same here, but it doesn’t really answer the question. The answer that makes the most sense is that Jesus knew that we could choose not to sin.

    Matt 5:48 Be yee therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.
  9. Donationkirksey957
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    22 Dec '05 02:06
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    I’ve noticed the same here, but it doesn’t really answer the question. The answer that makes the most sense is that Jesus knew that we could choose not to sin.

    Matt 5:48 Be yee therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.
    This particular verse is problematic in that there really is no way to meet this "perfection." The better translation is "be mature."
  10. Standard memberRemoved
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    22 Dec '05 02:24
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    What was the message of Jesus regarding his followers?

    In my experience I’ve found that the church is quick to condemn everybody as “hopeless sinners” citing Romans 3:22 “For all have sinned..." Even saved Christians are sinners who can never compare to Jesus.

    In the gospels Jesus seems to suggest that those who believe will one day become ...[text shortened]... o sin? Why would Jesus bother to tell us not to sin if he knew that we are all hopeless sinners?
    When the "end" comes and we are "ressurected" we will no longer have a "sinful nature". I suggest you read Romans chapters 6 and 7.
  11. Not Kansas
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    22 Dec '05 02:27
    Originally posted by telerion
    Because, as I've proposed many times here, a lot of people like to simulataneously mercilessly disparage and shamelessly promote themselves.
    heh
    Yup, some people see an ethical atheist and a Christian swine and have it set that there are pigs in Heaven, but not one atheist.
    It sells.
  12. Colorado
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    22 Dec '05 02:411 edit
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    This particular verse is problematic in that there really is no way to meet this "perfection." The better translation is "be mature."
    So you believe that we can never be like Jesus? Do you believe that Matt 5:48 is a bad translation, or do you think that Jesus chose his words poorly?
  13. Colorado
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    22 Dec '05 02:421 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    When the "end" comes and we are "ressurected" we will no longer have a "sinful nature". I suggest you read Romans chapters 6 and 7.
    I'll take a look at it. Do you believe that when we are ressurected we will be like Jesus?
  14. Donationkirksey957
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    22 Dec '05 02:49
    Originally posted by The Chess Express
    So you believe that we can never be like Jesus? Do you believe that Matt 5:48 is a bad translation, or do you think that Jesus chose his words poorly?
    Jesus did not speak English. The better translation for the Greek work is "mature." The reason I raise the question is that I've seen Christians persecuted by a theology of perfectionism.
  15. Colorado
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    22 Dec '05 05:37
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Jesus did not speak English. The better translation for the Greek work is "mature." The reason I raise the question is that I've seen Christians persecuted by a theology of perfectionism.
    So you believe that this would be a better translation.

    Matt 5:48 Be yee therefore matuer, even as your father which is in heaven is mature.

    One could argue that Jesus is still comparing Christians to God. We can only assume that God is mature in a perfect way, and so to be like God in that way would make us perfect.

    Do you believe that it is possible to be as perfect as God in one way, but still somehow not be perfect all around?
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