1. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Oct '08 19:25
    If one must perform works to "get" salvation then doesn't this undermine the works anyway? If our acts of kindness are motivated by a desire to get something from God (eg salvation) then are they really acts of kindness ? I would say that they are more likely to be self serving acts with a hidden agenda rather than acts of love.

    If anyone knows the mindset of Jehovah's Witnesses they will know that it's in built that they must convert people to the fold in order to gain favours from Jehovah.

    Such acts masquarade as kindness but are actually hollow. When the JW comes to your door is he really interested in you , or is he more interested in his own salvation? I have seen it with my own eyes. When the s++t hits the fan the horrible judgementalism kicks in.

    Similarly , the idea that we must be perfected and sinless in order to "merit" salvation is pernicious and dangerous. It results in perfectionism and fear (even terror) of God. Such individuals can have no assurance of salvation and cannot be at peace with God because one sin.....and they are history. The enemy has a field day with them , accusing them of all sorts of sinful thoughts.

    The paradox is that focussing on works or focussing on some perfect transformation takes our eyes off God's grace and puts it firmly on us and what we do. Works that result from grateful hearts that have already been saved by grace are real works because they are not likely to be self serving.

    Believing that we must be perfected before God can accept us just leads to judgmentalism of others who are not as "perfect" as us. It also establishes in our minds an image of God as unaccepting of our imperfections and sins. God becomes the perfectionist task master who cannot accept anything less than 100% sinlessness. God becomes He who we can bargain with as we lay out our "works" before Him in the hope they will be good enough to enter the pearly gates.

    Yuk! Anyone who has seen the ultimate results of these mindsets will know that they are not the truth and not of love. The paradox is that while seeking salvation they actually take many further from it.

    Salvation by works? Salvation via perfection? They can keep their heaven. If that's what God is like I don't want to be saved. Fortunately the Gospel is far more radical than that. Grace undermines human thinking and turns everything on it's head. Thieves go to paradise and "holy" men are damned.
  2. Standard memberNemesio
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    03 Oct '08 21:12
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If one must perform works to "get" salvation then doesn't this undermine the works anyway? If our acts of kindness are motivated by a desire to get something from God (eg salvation) then are they really acts of kindness ? I would say that they are more likely to be self serving acts with a hidden agenda rather than acts of love.

    If anyone knows t ...[text shortened]... urns everything on it's head. Thieves go to paradise and "holy" men are damned.
    Exactly to whom are you talking? No one with a Biblically sound theology
    is advocating the idea that works 'get' you salvation.

    However, something conspicuously absent from your theological framework
    (if we can be so generous as to call it a framework) is the role of works
    (and by works, I mean specifically those which Jesus lists in the course
    of His ministry) in the life of a person of faith.

    So, instead of attacking the imaginary Christian who says 'Salvation by
    works!,' you might do better to expound upon your own beliefs regarding
    the central importance of works as an indicator of a person with a living
    faith.

    Nemesio
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    03 Oct '08 22:071 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If one must perform works to "get" salvation then doesn't this undermine the works anyway? If our acts of kindness are motivated by a desire to get something from God (eg salvation) then are they really acts of kindness ? I would say that they are more likely to be self serving acts with a hidden agenda rather than acts of love.

    If anyone knows t urns everything on it's head. Thieves go to paradise and "holy" men are damned.
    I agree with Nemesio. I know of no Christian church which argues salvation can be achieved exclusively by works. That is a heresy of Pelagianism that the early Church condemned and has been maintained since.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 Oct '08 22:27
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If one must perform works to "get" salvation then doesn't this undermine the works anyway? If our acts of kindness are motivated by a desire to get something from God (eg salvation) then are they really acts of kindness ? I would say that they are more likely to be self serving acts with a hidden agenda rather than acts of love.

    If anyone knows t ...[text shortened]... urns everything on it's head. Thieves go to paradise and "holy" men are damned.
    Matt 25 :31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
  5. weedhopper
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    04 Oct '08 17:44
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If one must perform works to "get" salvation then doesn't this undermine the works anyway? If our acts of kindness are motivated by a desire to get something from God (eg salvation) then are they really acts of kindness ? I would say that they are more likely to be self serving acts with a hidden agenda rather than acts of love.

    If anyone knows t ...[text shortened]... urns everything on it's head. Thieves go to paradise and "holy" men are damned.
    The very first sentence "If one must perform works to get salvation..." proceeds from a false assumption. The thief on the cross received salvation and had no time to "do good works", as he was preoccupied with being crucified. Yet Christ saved him. The case for salvation by ANY means except grace alone, and NOT works, was at that moment, and forevermore, closed.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    04 Oct '08 18:38
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    The very first sentence "If one must perform works to get salvation..." proceeds from a false assumption. The thief on the cross received salvation and had no time to "do good works", as he was preoccupied with being crucified. Yet Christ saved him. The case for salvation by ANY means except grace alone, and NOT works, was at that moment, and forevermore, closed.
    Its convenient to draw your doctrine from one incident.

    What conclusion would you draw from the story in Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was punished for not feeding the poor and the poor man was rewarded for simply suffering during his life, apparently.

    Or the Parable of the Good Samaritan? What conclusions pertaining to salvation are there?

    Or what do you think of the passage I quoted above about how Christ is going to judge on the basis of works?

    You can be a very small minded person Pink Floyd. If you read the 'thief on the cross' story carefully you would have realised the following :

    1. the thief must have been God-faring. He rebuked the other thief and said "Dost not thou fear God .."
    2. must have had a conscience as he recognised that he was receiving the due reward for his deeds.
    3. asked for forgiveness and for Christ to remember him.
    4. the thief must have been following Christ around, as he knew Christ did nothing to deserve crucifiction, and also called Christ, Lord. He was therefore one of the few on that day that stood up for Christ, when the crowd, the soldiers, priests all mocked Him. Thats called WORKS.

    Your WORKS is part of the formula for salvation.
  7. weedhopper
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    04 Oct '08 22:58
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Its convenient to draw your doctrine from one incident.

    What conclusion would you draw from the story in Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was punished for not feeding the poor and the poor man was rewarded for simply suffering during his life, apparently.

    Or the Parable of the Good Samaritan? What conclusions pertaining to salvatio ...[text shortened]... sts all mocked Him. Thats called WORKS.

    Your WORKS is part of the formula for salvation.
    You assume much about a man whose name history does not even recall.
  8. weedhopper
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    04 Oct '08 22:59
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    I agree with Nemesio. I know of no Christian church which argues salvation can be achieved exclusively by works. That is a heresy of Pelagianism that the early Church condemned and has been maintained since.
    Mine does----Lutheran--Mo. Synod.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
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    05 Oct '08 09:25
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    The very first sentence "If one must perform works to get salvation..." proceeds from a false assumption. The thief on the cross received salvation and had no time to "do good works", as he was preoccupied with being crucified. Yet Christ saved him. The case for salvation by ANY means except grace alone, and NOT works, was at that moment, and forevermore, closed.
    I agree. If there is only one person who is saved by grace and faith alone who has no chance to be transformed or do "good works" (ie the thief on the cross) then its a massive fly in the ointment for the "anti grace" brigade.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
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    05 Oct '08 09:27
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Its convenient to draw your doctrine from one incident.

    What conclusion would you draw from the story in Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was punished for not feeding the poor and the poor man was rewarded for simply suffering during his life, apparently.

    Or the Parable of the Good Samaritan? What conclusions pertaining to salvatio ...[text shortened]... sts all mocked Him. Thats called WORKS.

    Your WORKS is part of the formula for salvation.
    I think you are kidding yourself here RAJK in order to buttress your position. This post of yours has all the hallmarks of self deception.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Oct '08 12:26
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I think you are kidding yourself here RAJK in order to buttress your position. This post of yours has all the hallmarks of self deception.
    A good example of deception is when religious leaders fool large numbers into believing that all they have to do is to get baptised and they are saved immediately and their salvation is guaranteed. Thats what you and your ilk are guilty of. Christ did not teach that. I hope you can answer to Him when the time comes.
  12. Standard memberknightmeister
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    05 Oct '08 13:40
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    A good example of deception is when religious leaders fool large numbers into believing that all they have to do is to get baptised and they are saved immediately and their salvation is guaranteed. Thats what you and your ilk are guilty of. Christ did not teach that. I hope you can answer to Him when the time comes.
    And what would you have me say?
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Oct '08 14:35
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    And what would you have me say?
    I dont understand your question.
  14. Standard memberknightmeister
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    05 Oct '08 15:34
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I dont understand your question.
    You said that I would answer to him and suggested subtley that he might not like what I had to say.

    What would you have me say instead ? (or what is the right answer?)
  15. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Oct '08 16:59
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    You said that I would answer to him and suggested subtley that he might not like what I had to say.

    What would you have me say instead ? (or what is the right answer?)
    If you know the teachings of Christ you would know that when asked how does one get salvation, His response was to love your neighbour. When asked who is my neighbour He gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. In Matt 25 He said the kingdom will be inhabited by those who do good works.

    Many Christians have chosen to ignore Christ's constant advice to do good works and instead preach that all thats required is baptism and faith (by that I mean a declaration of faith).

    The question people might have to answer therefore is "..why have you ignored my teachings to do good works."
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