-Removed-We are dealing with interpretations of words.
This means I could be wrong.
It also means your objection could turn out to be wrong .
If God does indeed punish forever the unreconciled in some manner beside your annhilation into non-existence - THEN ... will you charge God with being unrighteous ?
A simple question.
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Sonship you have been undone in this forum
This I appears to me as wishful exaggeration.
by revealing your own strange beliefs,
Which is strange?
1.) The possibility that "other worlds" might exist when God creates a new heaven and a new earth ?
Is that a strange belief, that possibly such might occur in eternity future ?
2.) That the punished would be confined in some way, which confinement might be discribed in terms of "chains of punishment" ?
Is that idea strange ?
3.) The at that time ancient past failed revolt against God may serve as a testimony to the folly of rebellion against God.
is THAT idea strange ?
Reply with a number ... 1 or 2 or 3 or all, or some combination.
And this time a second question to you.
Even if one or more concepts seem "strange" to you, does "strangeness" have to mean invalidity ?
you are hoisted by your own petard over this subject and your repeated refusal to answer FMF's question above is a permanent splinter in your theological credibility.
What ever would you do without FMF ?
No need to use his name.
I will ignore whoever I choose to not be in the mood to wrangle with.
The idea that you have to refer to FMF suggests that you do not have the enthusiasm or skill to actually make a case for your criticism.
Two sets of questions to you in this post.
1.) WHICH or which combination of the points is strange ?
2.) Does strangeness of an interpretation necessarily indicate complete invalidity of that interpretation ?
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While I give Divegeester time to consider his reply let me clear up one thing -
I think the Human Beings are the crown of God's creation in the universe.
I do not think that now or in the future any possible other worlds will mean beings more significant to the Creator than man.
God BECAME a man.
God became a man so that man might become sons of God expressing Him.
Let me be clear, any reference I made rightly or wrongly to "other worlds" is not meant to mean some Star Trek or Star Wars kind of superior life forms.
There are the angels of God.
But they are the servants of the saved.
" Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation ? " (Hebrews 1:15)
Originally posted by @sonshipWhat definition of "glory" and "glorifying" - as it applies to the impact on your god figure that the suffering of billions of people being tortured - are you using?
You go to the Bible and you yourself note how glory was accomplished on behalf of God in more than one way.
The entire career, of how ever long it will be, of Satan and his opposition party will only eventually go to the splendor and repute of God.
You just don't believe it.
You can also read [b]Exodus but be too blind in heart to see how God ...[text shortened]... ]Job[/b] and not see how the contest ended up being to God's glory. This is the unbelief thing.[/b]
Type it in your reply to this.
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No we are not dealing with "interprations of words".
YES WE ARE.
"lake of fire"
"the second death"
"hurt by the second death"
"in hell he lifted up his eyes"
"the smoke of their torment"
"the eternal fire"
"age of the ages"
"forever and ever"
"eternal life"
"eternal punishment"
etc. etc.
Don't tell me that this is not about the true meanings of biblical phrases and words.
The argument is how are we to understand these words and phrases as they appear in the Bible.
If it is not about interpretations of words then why the past complaints about liberalism and parables?
He doesn't, and you're wrong to the extent that you are deluded sonship.
More assertion.
Here is where I have always understood your problem to be - [paraphrase]
"I cannot CONCEIVE of God punishing FOREVER with anything except the punishment of ANNHILATION into non-existence. "
For maximum positioning of this complaint you add effects -
"billions tortured, billions screaming,
Sonship, you MUST see how horrible this is to attribute to Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible endless torture.
Look at Revelation 14. How could Jesus be sadistically standing there forever gazing at this spectacle ?? "
Right?
But that the prospect of eternal punishment I admit is too fearful to imagine.
The way I see it is that the fate of joining Satan in unreconcliation to God is a fate that the Bible intends for us to avoid at all costs.
Remaining unreconciled to God ? The Bible is clear - "You don't want to go there."
There are no people on other worlds witnessing eternal torture by your version of Jesus.
I am happy to say that may be true that there are no other planetary lives ... period.
I don't know.
I don't know if that will hold for the future.
And though you use the word "torture" I believe in just recompense.
Sadistic torture is what you need to push to prove that I am maligning God's character.
The real Jesus is not glorified in the eternal woe of those he is torturing. It's all unbelievable made up nonsense that your vanity will not let you back away from.
The most impressive case you could make to me is to prove that the TEXT of the Greek New Testament does not contain from the mouth of Jesus Christ certain words and teachings which you do not think He said.
That case has never been made.
Now notice how the angel in Revelation brings John away from gazing into the horror of the defeat of Christ's enemies to look instead at the utter glory of the Bride , the New Jerusalem. That's where I am.
" And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.
And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal." (Rev. 21:9-22)
Don't stand there gazing down into damnation contemplating that punishment.
The Bible could have said "an angel showed me". But it specifies that it was one of God's last judging angels.
Come away from that scene, and let us really show you something - the eternal holy city of God and man united forever. Isn't that the spirit of the prophecy ?
That is all the time I have this morning.
Originally posted by @sonshipSounds to me a word mis-translated, for instance, it could have originally been intended as 'people'. So you seem to be implying because of a probable faulty translation, the bible is inferring there are in fact other actual worlds like Earth with life forms on them and further, intelligent life forms having their own set of religions and such. The thing is, if so, how is 'hanging out those bad dudes' supposed to have some effect on some world say in the Andromeda galaxy 2 million light years away? You figure your god has some sort of intergalactic internet so those people on that distant planet can also see the bad dudes being punished on Earth? or Hell? All that from a most likely mis-translated word?
This paragraph I wrote a long time ago. It gave Divegeester the boldness to portray repeatedly that I push the Star Trek- nization of the Bible because I wrote [b]"other worlds" here.
[quote] The saved will glorify God with their endless happiness. But the lost will glorify Him with their endless woe. They will be hung out in chains of punishment as a ...[text shortened]... this paragraph.
No, not forever.
But I will take serious questions about what I wrote here.[/b]
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Originally posted by @sonhouseThe controversial paragraph is not a translation of a Bible verse.
Sounds to me a word mis-translated, for instance, it could have originally been intended as 'people'. So you seem to be implying because of a probable faulty translation, the bible is inferring there are in fact other actual worlds like Earth with life forms on them and further, intelligent life forms having their own set of religions and such. The thing ...[text shortened]... e bad dudes being punished on Earth? or Hell? All that from a most likely mis-translated word?
It is free English prose, commentary, partly from one writer Robert Govette and partly from me.
So you're starting off barking up the wrong tree altogether.