The "Space Alien" thing

Originally posted by @fmf
sonship reckons the agony of billions of non-Christians being tortured in flames forever "glorifies" his god figure. I am asking him to define the words "glory" and "glorify" in this context, as he uses them. He should embrace the opportunity to advertise the true nature of this supernatural being he believes in, however he is bottling out, utterly and completely. It's interesting.

At one point in your past, you believed the same thing as sonship.

Now, that you have conveniently discarded your faith, you feel it's okay to challenge someone who STILL believes in the "GOD FIGURE" that you put in the dumpster.

You are a hypocrite of the worst kind.

Originally posted by @sonship
"Negative glory" is not a good of a phrase.

But the fact remains that in judgment God was glorified. It the final crushing of Antichrist and his kingdom, the vision of the glory of God is striking.

If you picture people like Ghost of a Duke and JS375 [and others] hung out on chains, burning in flames, but being kept 'artificially' alive on purpose so that the suffering never ends, explain how that "glorifies" your god figure. What does "glorify" mean when we picture those people being tortured. Never mind about how you think it also serves the purpose of sending a warning message to aliens in outer space, just define the word "glorify".

Originally posted by @chaney3
At one point in your past, you believed the same thing as sonship.

What makes you think that?

Originally posted by @chaney3
Now, that you have conveniently discarded your faith, you feel it's okay to challenge someone who STILL believes in the "GOD FIGURE" that you put in the dumpster.

If not for discussing things and challenging one another, what is a debate forum like this for?

Originally posted by @chaney3
You are a hypocrite of the worst kind.

sonship believes torturing people for eternity for their lack of belief during their lifetime is "perfect morality", whereas I think it is morally incoherent. Where is the hypocrisy in that?

Originally posted by @fmf
sonship believes torturing people for eternity for their lack of belief during their lifetime is "perfect morality", whereas I think it is morally incoherent. Where is the hypocrisy in that?

The other possibility is that you just do not realize who it was who died on that cross laying down His life that we might not be judged but be saved.

Either you do not realize or you WILL not realize (probably some of both).

That that "figure" was someone more or less the same as Hitler, I am sure, is not the answer.

Originally posted by @sonship
That that "figure" was someone more or less the same as Hitler, I am sure, is not the answer.

The comparison with Hitler misses the mark. The Nazi's "ultimate justice" for Jews and the ideology of "ultimate justice" you propagate and endorse for non-Christians are on breathtakingly different scales. But the word "glorify" can be seen through the prism of the juxtaposition. It was an attempt to get you to face up to your use of the word. The depravity of the morality you propose, however, cannot be measured against the depravity of the Holocaust. I am not equating them. The scale of the two ideologies-actions cannot be equated.

Originally posted by @sonship
The other possibility is that you just do not realize who it was who died on that cross laying down His life that we might not be judged but be saved.

You have subscribed to a set of beliefs that allows you to forgive yourself for acting in an immoral way ["sinfully" as you would put it], perhaps for your whole life long, and you have convinced yourself that you will then graduate to immortality, and all this is because a supernatural being arranged for his offspring to be executed down on earth so that "we might not be judged" for being bad people.

But that's not enough for you, you have to then witter on endlessly about the grotesque and ludicrously ghastly - and utterly far-fetched -
things this supernatural being is going to do to people who don't believe the same things as you believe and who dissent from or disagree with the ridiculous things you claim about reality.

Then you start a thread like this one where you say "I'll take any questions anyone has about this paragraph."

But it turns out you can't answer the questions.

These arguments capitalize on objectors knowing the precise details of eternal perdition more than we are told.

To be fair, sometimes believers also may submit details of the nature of eternal perdition beyond what they have been told.

Having said that, what we are told conveys the message - eternal separation from God should be avoided.

The rich man who is in torment in the flames in Luke 16 seems coherent enough to carry on a conversation - a very sad one. But he has enough wits in his punishment to contemplate and speak to Abraham afar off about his punishment.

I can't think of being in such a situation without loud screaming. This man was talking rather coherently though he said he was in torment.

"And he called out and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this flame." (v.24)

"And he said, Then I ask you, Father, to send him to the house of my father- For I have five brothers - so that he may solemnly testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment." (v.28)

" ... No Father Abraham but if someone risen from the dead would go to them, they will repent." (v.30)

The picture is one of a punished soul being coherent to soberly contemplate and even speak of his condition. At least for this soul such a situation is conveyed.

Parable or history, the TEACHING is that man needs to soberly think about his condition before God on the life side of the grave.

If annihilation into non-existence is the reality then I think Jesus Christ would have been unrighteous to produce a parable OR a record, of judgment that is impossible.

The annoyance leveled at believers in the words of Jesus (whose integrity is for me beyond questioning) is misdirected. Either Christ was unrighteous to even make us think such a possibility could happen OR He is faithful, frank, and realistic to warn us.

" If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead." (v.31)

Originally posted by @fmf

Then you start a thread like this one where you say "I'll take any questions anyone has about this paragraph."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Followed by the words "... not forever ".

I'll take any questions anyone has about this paragraph.
No, not forever.

That means not perpetually. With someone I may decide "That's enough."

Originally posted by @sonship
To be fair, sometimes believers also may submit details of the nature of eternal perdition beyond what they have been told.

Oh? What details about the nature of eternal torture have you submitted that may not necessarily be true?

Originally posted by @sonship
That means not perpetually. With someone I may decide "That's enough."

You haven't define "glory" and "glorify".

The word "glorify" was one of the key ones in the paragraph you invited questions on.

How do you define it?

Originally posted by @fmf
You have subscribed to a set of beliefs that allows you to forgive yourself for acting in an immoral way ["sinfully" as you would put it], perhaps for your whole life long, and you have convinced yourself that you will then graduate to immortality, and all this is because a supernatural being arranged for his offspring to be executed down on earth so that "we m ...[text shortened]... questions anyone has about this paragraph."

But it turns out you can't answer the questions.

You have subscribed to a set of beliefs that allows you to forgive yourself for acting in an immoral way

No I don't.
I realize the seriousness of my actions.

If I did not want to face the seriousness of what I do, I would not daily be in the Bible.
I also realize the extent that God went that we be justified.

Believing that the Son of God bore my sins for my justification is not to take lightly my sins. On the contrary, it is to accept the infinitely precious price that was paid for my forgiveness.

There realization motivates me more and more to turn my life over to Christ.
I don't expect to remain the same kind of person forever.
I expect to be conformed to His image.

" Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:28)

Even my forgiveness is not an end in itself. My being forgiven is a step in the procedure of God's eternal plan to have many sons, brothers of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.

If you have a better plan, tell us about it.

Originally posted by @sonship

You have subscribed to a set of beliefs that allows you to forgive yourself for acting in an immoral way

No I don't.
I realize the seriousness of my actions.

If I did not want to face the seriousness of what I do, I would not daily be in the Bible.
I also realize the extent that God went that we be justified.

Believing that the ...[text shortened]... s, brothers of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.

If you have a better plan, tell us about it.

I don't see your definition of "glorify" here.

Originally posted by @sonship
If I did not want to face the seriousness of what I do, I would not daily be in the Bible.
I also realize the extent that God went that we be justified.

Believing that the Son of God bore my sins for my justification is not to take lightly my sins. On the contrary, it is to accept the infinitely precious price that was paid for my forgiveness.

Ther ...[text shortened]... procedure of God's eternal plan to have many sons, brothers of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.

Here you demonstrate, exactly, how you have subscribed to a set of beliefs that allows you to forgive yourself for acting in an immoral way. How many times have you declared that you are already "saved" regardless of your "sins"? How many times have you declared that you will be "forgiven" for your "sins" come what may?