The Tao of Zen

And it is not enough to have memories ...

Only when they have changed into our own blood ...

can it happen that in some very rare hour

the first word of a poem arises...

(Rilke)

Originally posted by josephw
Truth is a word. Has it no meaning?

Everything humans think, say, or do has a name. We name everything. Words have meaning and purpose. We use them(words)for everything.

Even to describe Zen or Tao.

There is no escaping words. You'd have to extract your brain to lose words.

Without something to attach it to, it's just a word.

Not a little communication occurs in silence. There's even a language teaching method called the Silent Way! Many activities can be demonstrated in very few if any words.

It would save a lot of time if you could just show me the truth instead of talking about it. 🙂

Originally posted by josephw
Yes. I agree with you that words fail when describing most anything.

That point is not lost on me my friend. I get it. Don't be sad. I understand. Believe it or not.

Allow me to share this experience. When I was a little boy I was told that when I grew up I could be whatever I wanted to be. I remember thinking that I was already what I wanted to be.
...[text shortened]... ou do describe so well. That's not my purpose. I just wish that my words were understood too.

Yes, I see you see and glad you remember. It is reported that Jesus himself said "Unless you become as little children...'. Can't put my hand on it at the moment, but there is something similar in the Tao Te Ching.

Much in life distracts or blocks from a wider, deeper view. And that view is not just a Taoist or Zen one, there are many of all the different paths that have seen, including the Christian one.

My view is not to be too definite (as they were in "schooling" ...'little boxes, little boxes, all made out of ticky tacky, all built just the same"😉, but continue to practice being open to the Ever New.

We may see this as "God" and if so, I think its more helpful to have a VERY BIG idea of "God", one so big that words begin to fail (as they should), not the small limited God some teach.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Without something to attach it to, it's just a word.

Not a little communication occurs in silence. There's even a language teaching method called the Silent Way! Many activities can be demonstrated in very few if any words.

It would save a lot of time if you could just show me the truth instead of talking about it. 🙂

When I go on vacation it isn't to Disneyland.

I prefer the quite solitude of the desert or a remote ravine in the mountains.

Then I can be still and meditate on the moment.


Show you the truth? Can that be done? What does truth look like?

Originally posted by josephw
When I go on vacation it isn't to Disneyland.

I prefer the quite solitude of the desert or a remote ravine in the mountains.

Then I can be still and meditate on the moment.


Show you the truth? Can that be done? What does truth look like?

I don't understand the reference to Disneyland. Deserts and ravines are nice, though.

I must be getting something wrong here, because it seems you're saying truth can be described in words but not demonstrated in public.

Originally posted by Taoman
Yes, I see you see and glad you remember. It is reported that Jesus himself said "Unless you become as little children...'. Can't put my hand on it at the moment, but there is something similar in the Tao Te Ching.

Much in life distracts or blocks from a wider, deeper view. And that view is not just a Taoist or Zen one, there are many of all the different ...[text shortened]... rds begin to fail (as they should), not the small limited God some teach.

Cheers.

I agree with what you say. Up to a point.

God. Have you tried to imagine and describe what God would be? I don't think it's possible to grasp. At least not in words we use. Not by us.

What we Christians know about God isn't of our own invention. We claim that God has revealed Himself in terms we can grasp. We know our understanding about God in the sense of the infinite is finite indeed. We have only that information about God that He has revealed. I think most hardly understand what has been revealed.

The knowledge of God comes by revelation from God. No one can describe God except He Himself.

Our words fail utterly!

In view of eternity, I can't imagine a stark cold universe void of a being that has all knowledge, all power, all wisdom, and that will leave me in the cold hard clutch of death. I'm not afraid of death. I will live forever!

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I don't understand the reference to Disneyland. Deserts and ravines are nice, though.

I must be getting something wrong here, because it seems you're saying truth can be described in words but not demonstrated in public.

"Much in life distracts or blocks from a wider, deeper view."

When you said the above in the context of your post concerning silence I thought of the noise that distracts us from a greater more potent experience of life.

I was agreeing with you.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Much in life distracts or blocks from a wider, deeper view."

When you said the above in the context of your post concerning silence I thought of the noise that distracts us from a greater more potent experience of life.

I was agreeing with you.[/b]

All right.

Originally posted by Taoman
A book that helped relate philosophical Taoism to Zen is "The Tao of Zen" by Ray Grigg, Tuttle Pub. 1994.

In it he makes a strong and convincing argument that Zen actually owes more to Taoism than its portrayed Buddhist roots. Zen, originally "Chan" in China, before its Japanese expedition, is clothed by the history of formal (and questionable) Buddhist " ct than a deliberating consciousness often recognizes or admits."
>>>

This reality defies words.

which is why we highly esteem certain poets, for it seems to me, that they are able to portray this reality, if only in fleeting glimpses, not in abstraction, but in a kind of shared experience. We marvel at the words for it said what we ourselves knew to be the case instinctively, but could not extract the experience from our subconscious realm so as to present it to another, for indeed, we may go to the well, but its the man of discernment that is able to draw up deep waters, in others and himself.

(Proverbs 20:5) . . .Counsel in the heart of a man is as deep waters, but the man of discernment is one that will draw it up. . .

🙂

Originally posted by josephw
I agree with what you say. Up to a point.

God. Have you tried to imagine and describe what God would be? I don't think it's possible to grasp. At least not in words we use. Not by us.

What we Christians know about God isn't of our own invention. We claim that God has revealed Himself in terms we can grasp. We know our understanding about God in the se ...[text shortened]... ll leave me in the cold hard clutch of death. I'm not afraid of death. I will live forever!

In "God" way of speaking, much of what you say I feel is correct - ultimately any 'revealing' arises without our manipulation or intervention. And that revealing to me can as easily be through some words of a sacred book as much as a chance encounter or meaningful conversation, or dreams, as with some great scientific breakthroughs. This is what I mean by not limiting the ways the Great "speaks " to us.

And when we do hear, in whatever form that revealing comes, it will be in a manner we can comprehend. That can be even in meaningful silence. Or in the most abstract, abstruse words that one may respond to, but not another, who may respond to a meaningful scriptural quote that rings in the heart.

Place no limits on the Limitless One, the One that is Many.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
This reality defies words.

which is why we highly esteem certain poets, for it seems to me, that they are able to portray this reality, if only in fleeting glimpses, not in abstraction, but in a kind of shared experience. We marvel at the words for it said what we ourselves knew to be the case instinctively, but could not extract the experience ...[text shortened]... rt of a man is as deep waters, but the man of discernment is one that will draw it up. . .

🙂

Alas! How sad that poetry in our current fast age is not appreciated as much as it could be. Poetry, as you say, is often the best means to seek to express the hard to express.

Poetry is rich in all the spiritual paths. One of my favorites is the great Rumi of the Sufi mystical tradition, the very opposite of the rabid spiritually blind Islamists. Such a loving and accepting man in his words. Taoists refer to the Great or the Way (Tao), the mystical Sufi tradition refers to the "Beloved".

Here are some of his sweet offerings (they are more musical apparently, in his own language);

“Why do you stay in prison
when the door is so wide open?

Move outside the tangle of fear-thinking.
Live in silence.
***
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.
***
Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.
***
Be occupied, then, with what you really value and let the thief take something else.
***
“Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation.
***
Beware! Don’t allow yourself to do what you know is wrong, relying on the thought, ‘Later I will repent and ask God’s forgiveness’.
***
Brother stand the pain; Escape the poison of your impulses. The sky will bow to your beauty, if you do. Learn to light the candle. Rise with the sun. Turn away from the cave of your sleeping. That way a thorn expands to a rose. A particular glows with the universal.
***
Burdens are the foundations of ease and bitter things the forerunners of pleasure.
***
Close the door of words that the window of the heart may open.
***
Conventional opinion is the ruin of our souls.
***
Don’t allow your animal nature to rule your reason.
***
Don't grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
***
Don’t let your throat tighten with fear. Take sips of breath all day and night, before death closes your mouth.
***
Everyone is so afraid of death, but the real sufis just laugh: nothing tyrannizes their hearts. What strikes the oyster shell does not damage the pearl.
***
Everything in the universe is a pitcher brimming with wisdom and beauty.
***
If I love myself I love you. If I love you I love myself.
***
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do.
***
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death."
***

In all paths you find the ones, often poets, (like David) who see more. We close ourselves to such gems by thinking God speaks but in one language or the Way appears only along one path. Sometimes there is what we see as "dust" amongst the gems but who would throw them out for that?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]'Those who know...cannot explain.
And those who can explain...do not know'

Crippling ideology. Renders truth unknowable. And who said this? What are they trying to say? That something, a truth, cannot be told in plain words and understood by the hearer? This platitude should be rejected by any and all reasoning people because it fails to do anyth all, except by those who cannot hear.

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."[/b]

You misunderstand the quote ; " Those who know cannot explain....And those that can ...do not know"

It actually means that those that know, cannot explain the higher truth of spirituality to those that are not qualified to hear.

Practically the whole world is not qualified to hear, because of their false beliefs and lack of transcendental knowledge, and also their envy towards God and their materialistic life style.

Those that know, do know truth, but too many cannot hear......so the problem is with the hearer, not the speaker.

What you have said is in error, because you also are not qualified to comment on theses things,...... because of your acceptance of false beliefs and lack spiritual understanding..

What has been published in the Bible, is by unscrupulous politicians, and it is mostly false, and is accepted by mostly meat eaters, who are low class and dishonest.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
You misunderstand the quote ; " Those who know cannot explain....And those that can ...do not know"

It actually means that those that know, cannot explain the higher truth of spirituality to those that are not qualified to hear.

Practically the whole world is not qualified to hear, because of their false beliefs and lack of transcendental knowledge ...[text shortened]... nd it is mostly false, and is accepted by mostly meat eaters, who are low class and dishonest.

Oh, really? My understanding is that the original writers were indeed saying that the non-dual Reality, because it is both the origin and container of all things cannot be ultimately expressed by language that is by its very nature dualistic, categorising and differentiating.
I respect the vegetarian approach but I don't follow it myself, although 80 % of my diet is ovo-vegetarian. Do the supremely qualified eat eggs and shellfish or is that low and dishonest too?

Originally posted by Taoman
Alas! How sad that poetry in our current fast age is not appreciated as much as it could be. Poetry, as you say, is often the best means to seek to express the hard to express.

Poetry is rich in all the spiritual paths. One of my favorites is the great Rumi of the Sufi mystical tradition, the very opposite of the rabid spiritually blind Islamists. Such a mes there is what we see as "dust" amongst the gems but who would throw them out for that?

its beautiful Taoman, indeed, what is a diamond but dust or carbon that has been subject to specific conditioning over time, or a pearl that started out as an grain of sand 🙂

Originally posted by Taoman
Oh, really? My understanding is that the original writers were indeed saying that the non-dual Reality, because it is both the origin and container of all things cannot be ultimately expressed by language that is by its very nature dualistic, categorising and differentiating.
I respect the vegetarian approach but I don't follow it myself, although 80 % of my ...[text shortened]... vegetarian. Do the supremely qualified eat eggs and shellfish or is that low and dishonest too?

Firstly my comments were addressed to Joseph, ....but anyway:

Brahman or spirit (Gods eternal all encompassing spiritual energy) is non dualistic, but has multifarious attributes and qualities.

But God has expanded himself into unlimited living entities (individual souls)

The little piece of God in this body (the soul) is animating its functioning, and has identity and individuality.

It is with this individuality, that a relationship can exist between God and the living entity.

This is so, because we are all tiny expansions of God, with the same qualities, just like the drop of ocean is the same as the ocean itself.....and the sun-ray is individual but also forever connected with the sun.....but is not the sun proper. ( the sun ray is one with the sun)

The sun-ray has no existence without the sun......and we dont have existence without God.