The Triune God in Revelation 4&5

Originally posted by Suzianne
No, those are rarely his 'target audience', but somehow it never stops those ignorant of biblical concepts from criticizing him.

Who are you referring to? Is this your passive aggressive way of calling me and Rajk999 ignorant?

The seven lamps of fire before the throne of God are said to be "the seven Spirits of God".

I gave one reason that the seven Spirits of God refer to the Third of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. I know many Christians have never heard this before. I know some Christian readers at this point would be cautious.

Let be me clear. You should be cautious. Let me only ask that your caution be based on what the Bible says and not on some sense of "traditional flavor".

We are going to touch some rather profound things now about "the seven Spirits of God". i am going to try my best to make them clear and convincing.

So far, I have reminded readers that the salutation of John in the opening of the book mentions grace and peace from three (for lack of a better human language word) "Persons" :

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace and peace from Him who is and who was and who is coming, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn from the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. " (Rev. 4,5a)

Surely, John is referring (in the case of the second "Person" ) the seven Spirit who are before His throne in chapter 4.

" ... And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." (4:5)

One has to go back to the book of Zechariah to see more of the significance of the seven Spirits of God. But first, to emphasize that the seven Spirits of God are the same as the Third of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit, we notice also that in chapter 5, the seven Spirits are the seven eyes of the Lamb.

"And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as having just been slain,

having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (5:6)

When you look into the eyes of a person you are really looking into that person. The eyes of the God-man Redeemer - Jesus Christ the Lamb of God, are the seven Spirits of God.

The seven Spirits of God were first mentioned as the seven lamps burning before the throne of the Creator (4:5). Now those seven eyes have become the eyes of the Redeemer - the Lamb, Jesus Christ who has been slain and is standing in resurrection.

How can we say the eyes of a person do not represent that living person ? The eyes of the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world are the Holy Spirit here, as the seven Spirits of God.

What utterly close identification there is between the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ. His eyes are the Spirit.

Put another way, the eternal Spirit of chapter 4 seems to have picked up Someone. The eternal Spirit as the seven Spirits before God have been compounded into the Lamb - the Son of God.

The passage about the seven eyes being sent forth into the world has to remind us of Zechariah 4:10.

"For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice when they see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel;

they are the eyes of Jehovah running to and fro on the whole earth." (Zech. 4:10)

The eyes of Jehovah running to and fro through the whole earth in Zechariah are the eyes of the Lamb of God sent forth into all the earth. Jesus is God incarnate. Jesus is Jehovah God incarnate as a man.

And the eyes of God in the Old Testament have become the eyes of Jesus the Lamb of God in Revelation 5.

" ... a Lamb standing as having been just slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (Rev. 4;6b)

We will perhaps see that both passages are related to the rebuilding of the damaged house of God.

So in Revelation 4 and 5 we have the Trinity revealed.

God is upon the throne.

God is the seven lamps which are the seven Spirits of God before the throne, and are the eyes of the Lamb

God is the incarnated Redeemer - the Lamb standing as just having been freshly slain. He has resurrected and been exalted.

Now as the eyes of the Redeeming Lamb are the seven Spirits of God, this has to remind us of the mysterious STONE in the book of Zechariah which had seven eyes.

" ... for I am sbout to bring forth My Servant, the Shoot (or the Branch) ,

For here is the stone that I have set before Joshua- upon one stone are seven eyes, I will engrave its engravings, declares Jehovah of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. " (See Zechariah 3:8b.9)

A STONE with seven eyes - What is this ?

A Lamb with seven eyes in Revelation and a STONE with seven eyes in Zechariah. What is this ?

We need a overview. We need a birds eye view of God's plan of salvation.

Jesus Christ is the sacrificial Lamb to take away the sins of the world.
Jesus Christ is also the cornerstone of the building of God the church.

Jesus is the Redeemer to take away the iniquity of God's people in one day on His cross.

Jesus Christ as God-man is also the Firstborn Son to which all the saved human beings will be conformed to His image. In the great living temple of God in Revelation 21 and 22 the incarnated God-man is the great foundation and cornerstone. All the saved are to be conformed to His image and be BUILT up together into a corporate tabernacle of God new Jerusalem.

The Redeemer is God and is also one of us - He is a man. He is God and man mingled together. He went to the cross to remove our iniquity in one day. He went to prepare a place for us because in the house of God there are many abodes.

The Lamb with seven eyes is the Redeemer.
The Stone with seven eyes is the Redeemer as the Builder too.

The Trinity revealed in Revelation 4&5 is ultimately for the building up of redeemed man into the house of the living God the holy city - New Jerusalem.

Paul writes to the church in Ephesus to tell them that they are being builded up into the habitation of God.

" Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:20-22)

Some readers are encouraged to read this post again a second time.
Though it is difficult, i think you will get a glimpse of something important about the Bible's revelation.

Originally posted by divegeester
Who are you referring to? Is this your passive aggressive way of calling me and Rajk999 ignorant?

What of it, Larry? Are ya gonna come over to my house with a baseball bat?

You call it "passive-aggressive". I call it not wishing to be bothered with the rabble while I am in a real discussion. I should realize that never stops the bullies though, who don't want to discuss, and who only want to fight.

Originally posted by divegeester
As time passes it becomes clearer to me how strange some of your beliefs are. It is astonishing that none of the other Christians here (apart from Rajk999) call you out over the error your propagate in this forum. Notably, none stand with you either, so I don't see it as others agreeing with you. I can only assume that their dislike for me is more important to them than defending truth.

Having people around who disagree with you really, really bothers you, doesn't it? And even more so, having those people deciding not to engage you really bothers you, because that leaves you no opportunity to do what you do best: bully them.

Believe it or not, but those people are committing no crimes, no matter how badly you want people to rise up and join you in your quest to quiet those who disagree with you.

It all boils down to 'us' and 'them' for you, doesn't it? Somehow, I do not think that a 'Spirituality' forum is exactly the place for ego displays. This is how you end up neutering your own arguments.

Now, the seven Spirits of God ...

The number SEVEN sometimes signifies intensification.

In the millennium the sun is said to be seven times as bright -

" And the light of the moon will be like the light of the sun, And the light of the sun will be sevenfold, like the light of seven days.' (Isaiah 30:29)

Seven here stands for sevenfold intensification.

Here to we see the guards of Nebuchadnezzar heated the fiery furnace seven times as hot to intensify it.

" Then Nebuchadnezzar was filled with fury and the countenance of his face was changed toward Shadrach, Meshach, and Abd-nego. He responded and commanded that the furnace be made seven times hotter than it was usually heated." (Dan. 30:19)

Seven stands for intensification sometimes. The seven Spirits of God point to the intensification of the operation of the Holy Spirit to combat the degradation of the church.

The seven Spirits of God suggest that the Third of the Triune God must be intensified in the days of church age to deal with the deadness of the Christian church in its degraded state. Especially in the final days before the second coming of Christ, the sevenfold intensified Spirit of Christ must recover the damaged church life that a remnant may be brought up to the normal standard of life.

Evidence for this is seen in the letter of Christ to the deadened church in Sardis -

"And to the messenger of the church in Sardis write:

These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars:

I know your works, that you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead." (Rev. 3:1)

The degradation of the Christian church results in a spiritual deadness though Christianity has a name of renown in the world. The intensification of the Spirit is needed to enliven the deaden saints to overcome.

The Second of the Trinity Christ, HAS the seven Spirits, the Holy Spirit the Third of the Divine Trinity.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Having people around who disagree with you really, really bothers you, doesn't it? And even more so, having those people deciding not to engage you really bothers you, because that leaves you no opportunity to do what you do best: bully them.

Believe it or not, but those people are committing no crimes, no matter how badly you want people to rise ...[text shortened]... rum is exactly the place for ego displays. This is how you end up neutering your own arguments.

This is an exchange which traverses several sonship threads and is about the trinity doctrine and the possible/alleged consequences of rejecting it. If you have something to add to that topic, please feel free to do so.

Originally posted by divegeester
This is an exchange which traverses several sonship threads and is about the trinity doctrine and the possible/alleged consequences of rejecting it. If you have something to add to that topic, please feel free to do so.

I think you mischaracterize my OP.

I told you to open up your own thread in which you could repeat and repeat your question. Why didn't you just do that instead of try to bend every thread I open to YOUR subject ?

My OP

This thread will be about the Trinity as seen in Revelation 4 and 5 along with some other interesting exegesis of those two chapters.

I do not consider my interpretations to be infallible. I believe anyone reading aloud or reading the two chapters with a heart turned towards God will be blessed.

'Hear O israel, Yahweh our God is one"

Now to the splendid Revelation chapters four and five.

Originally posted by Suzianne
What of it, Larry? Are ya gonna come over to my house with a baseball bat?

You call it "passive-aggressive". I call it not wishing to be bothered with the rabble while I am in a real discussion. I should realize that never stops the bullies though, who don't want to discuss, and who only want to fight.

I'm simply asking you who it is you are referring to as being "ignorant of Biblical concepts"?

Hardly "bullying".

Originally posted by Suzianne
Having people around who disagree with you really, really bothers you, doesn't it? And even more so, having those people deciding not to engage you really bothers you, because that leaves you no opportunity to do what you do best: bully them.

For the umpteenth time, if you feel my posting is "bullying" then I strongly urge you to alert those of my posts which you interpret this way, and/or send a complaint about me to the site administration. If you are not prepared to do this then I request that you refrain from making these accusations. Thank you.

Originally posted by sonship

[b] After these things I saw; and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you the things that mist take place after these things.

Immediatly I was in spirit; and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and upon the throne was One sitting." (Re ...[text shortened]... He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John." (Rev. 1:1)

[/b]

I know I'm coming in a little late with these questions but I think they are important important.

In Rev 1:1, Why did God have to give any information to Jesus?

If Jesus is God wouldn't he already have the informatioon?

Originally posted by sonship

[b]"And there was a rainbow around the throne like an emerald in appearance." (3b)

Two matters here are important.

1.) the rainbow

2.) the appearance of emerald (green)

The rainbow hearkens back to God's promise to Noah. God covenants that He would not totally destroy all life in His judgment. This rainbow was shown ...[text shortened]... eaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells for eternity. This is in chapters 21 and 22.[/b]

Sorry, another late question.

You say that in Rev. 21 & 22 a new heavens and a new Earth are to be created.

How does this harmonize with Eccl. 1:4b, "...but the earth remains forever.?

Thank you.

I'm about ready to go to bed but I will look for your answers tomorrow.

Originally posted by Suzianne
You call it "passive-aggressive". I call it not wishing to be bothered with the rabble while I am in a real discussion. I should realize that never stops the bullies though, who don't want to discuss, and who only want to fight.

Do you ever stop to wonder whether some of the things you claim other people do are actually things that you do?

Originally posted by roigam
You say that in Rev. 21 & 22 a new heavens and a new Earth are to be created.

How does this harmonize with Eccl. 1:4b, "...but the earth remains forever?

The Bible is teeming with references to a new earth. Here are a few below. Obviously Ecclesiastes is referring to the new earth.

Rev 21:1
Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away...

Isa 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Isa 66:22
"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure

2 Peter 3:13
But in keeping with God's promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells

Originally posted by Suzianne

Suzianne: having those people deciding not to engage you really bothers you...

And then a few lines later...


Suzianne Believe it or not, but those people are committing no crimes, no matter how badly you want people to rise up and join you in your quest to quiet those who disagree with you

Which is it to be?

Are you accusing divegeester of trying to make people he talks to go "quiet"?.

Or are you accusing him of getting angry because the people he talks to go "quiet"?