1. Joined
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    12 Oct '07 16:143 edits
    "You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32).

    From what will the truth make you free?

    "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:33-34)


    Free from sin.

    "And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever." (John 8:33-35)

    Those who are still servants to sin "abideth not in the house for ever".

    And yet, many seem to believe that by merely professing a "belief" in Jesus, eternal life is gained. That it doesn't matter if they continue to sin.

    How can this be? How can so many overlook the words of Jesus, here and in several other places?
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    12 Oct '07 16:412 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    ... How can so many overlook the words of Jesus, here and in several other places?
    The easy road ..
    The path of least resistance ..

    Its nice to convince yourself (and its nice financially too as the churches get rich) that once saved always saved. People love to hear that, I guess its comforting.

    Edit : But I dont think anyone here believes that its ok to continue to sin. Did anyone say that ?
  3. Standard membertelerion
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    12 Oct '07 16:44
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]"You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32).

    From what will the truth make you free?

    "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo ...[text shortened]... s be? How can so many overlook the words of Jesus, here and in several other places?
    Don't stress about it too much. It's only make believe after all. When the game stops being fun, you've gotta put it down for a while.
  4. Joined
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    12 Oct '07 16:52
    Flannery O'Connor said that the truth will make you odd. I always thought that was a kinda cool quote.
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    12 Oct '07 18:03
    Originally posted by telerion
    Don't stress about it too much. It's only make believe after all. When the game stops being fun, you've gotta put it down for a while.
    But the Truth WILL make you free.

    Unfortunately the vast majority (including Christians, perhaps especially even) never reach enlightenment.
  6. Joined
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    12 Oct '07 18:102 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The easy road ..
    The path of least resistance ..

    Its nice to convince yourself (and its nice financially too as the churches get rich) that once saved always saved. People love to hear that, I guess its comforting.

    Edit : But I dont think anyone here believes that its ok to continue to sin. Did anyone say that ?
    Most will pay it lip service and give the usual excuses about "trying", "nobody's perfect", "only human", etc., but that's about as far as it seems to go. Evidently they have yet to be freed, which leads me to believe that they have yet to realize the Truth. They'll only go so far as they think is necessary to be granted 'eternal life'.

    I do get the impression that for some it IS a matter of, "I've got eternal life, so whatever I do is ok".
  7. Illinois
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    12 Oct '07 19:21
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    But the Truth WILL make you free.

    Unfortunately the vast majority (including Christians, perhaps especially even) never reach enlightenment.
    I assume, then, that you have reached enlightenment? Praytell, how did you reach it?
  8. Hmmm . . .
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    12 Oct '07 19:282 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]"You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32).

    From what will the truth make you free?

    "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo s be? How can so many overlook the words of Jesus, here and in several other places?
    [/b]I was going to use this to start a thread from a slightly different angle, but, reading this, maybe it will fit in here...

    Caveat: both lucifershammer and knightmeister have in the past accused me of trying to “Buddha-size” the Christian message. They may well be right, and so, if that’s the case, I’ll simply accept the accusation unapologetically; and folks can take that as a caveat on what I have to say.

    ____________________________________

    On mdhall’s counsel, I started reading the Philokalia,* translated by G.E.H Palmer, Philip Sherrard and (now Archbishop) Kallistos Ware. In the translator’s glossary of terms, here is the commentary on the word “sin”:

    SIN (hamartia): the primary meaning of the Greek word is ‘failure’ or, more specifically, “failure to hit the mark’ and so a ‘missing of the mark’, a ‘going astray’ or, ultimately, ‘failure to achieve the purpose for which one is created’. It is closely related, therefore to illusion (q.v.). The translation ‘sin’ should be read with these connotations in mind.

    ILLUSION (plani): in our version sometimes also translated ‘delusion’. Literally, wandering astray, deflection from the right path; hence error, beguilement, the acceptance of a mirage mistaken for truth. Cf. the literal sense of sin (q.v.) as ‘missing the mark’.

    _____________________________________

    If this is correct (and these guys are Greek scholars in the Orthodox tradition), then “salvation from sin” means salvation from illusion. Which is precisely what it means in Buddhism as well.

    After that, I admit, the two religions may part a lot of company—unless one wants to read Christianity strictly through a Buddhist lens (even if one reads them both through the lens of the so-called “perennial philosophy” ). I am only addressing this one particular question, however, in the context of your opening post.

    [Note: the root meaning of the Greek word soterias (“salvation” ) is to make whole or make well; although it can also mean deliverance, preserving, rescuing—neverthless, I would take those in the context of its root meaning.]
    _____________________________________

    * The Philokalia (which means “love of beauty” ) is described by the translators, all in the Eastern Orthodox church, as “a collection of texts written between the fourth and fifteenth centuries by spiritual masters of the Orthodox Christian tradition.” The original texts were written in Greek.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
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    12 Oct '07 19:39
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]"You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32).

    From what will the truth make you free?

    "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo ...[text shortened]... s be? How can so many overlook the words of Jesus, here and in several other places?
    And yet, many seem to believe that by merely professing a "belief" in Jesus, eternal life is gained. That it doesn't matter if they continue to sin. ---Think of ONe-----

    ...and who's going to decide the cut off point when a man has stopped sinning enough to have "gained" eternal life? What if he lives a holy life but slips up one day , does he then lose salvation and then have to put in some extra days to get the credits he needs? Is it like collecting airmiles? Or is a total 100% record the only way to gain eternal life? Is it possible for some one to have 100% committment only to screw up from time to time (like peter , who incidentaly Christ NEVER suggested he lost his salvation by making a mess of things)?

    Isn't this just salavtion by works by another name?
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
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    12 Oct '07 19:44
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The easy road ..
    The path of least resistance ..

    Its nice to convince yourself (and its nice financially too as the churches get rich) that once saved always saved. People love to hear that, I guess its comforting.

    Edit : But I dont think anyone here believes that its ok to continue to sin. Did anyone say that ?
    Its nice to convince yourself (and its nice financially too as the churches get rich) that once saved always saved. People love to hear that, I guess its comforting. RAK99---

    I thought it was Biblical and that we were supposed to have assurance of salvation. Unless you are talking about nominal Christianity.
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
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    12 Oct '07 19:51
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]"You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32).

    From what will the truth make you free?

    "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo ...[text shortened]... s be? How can so many overlook the words of Jesus, here and in several other places?
    And yet, many seem to believe that by merely professing a "belief" in Jesus, eternal life is gained Think of One---

    I wonder if this is the problem here. Are you refering to belief in the sense of an intellectual tipping of the cap , or do you mean belief as in placing one's trust in Christ's ability to save?

    Trusting him is different from believing intelectually and it's trust which the Bible refers to. However , learning to trust him is half my struggle and I don't always win .But he always picks me up and gives me another go at it and I learn and slowly move on. To me this is just growth in Christ , to you I will have lost my salvation due to not 100% trusting in him all the time. Luckily God is infinitely more patient with my humanity than you seem to be.
  12. Illinois
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    12 Oct '07 19:52
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    And yet, many seem to believe that by merely professing a "belief" in Jesus, eternal life is gained Think of One---

    I wonder if this is the problem here. Are you refering to belief in the sense of an intellectual tipping of the cap , or do you mean belief as in placing one's trust in Christ's ability to save?

    Trusting him is different from belie ...[text shortened]... all the time. Luckily God is infinitely more patient with my humanity than you seem to be.
    Good point, KM. I heartily agree.
  13. Hmmm . . .
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    12 Oct '07 20:07
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    Good point, KM. I heartily agree.
    You know, I keep getting more and more convinced that a great deal of confusion (including within the Christian fold) and unnecessary disagreement derives from “believe” being (or, rather, having become) a really bad translation of pisteo (and “belief” of the noun pistis).

    And I think KM has hit the nail on the head there: when the Bible was first translated into English, “believe” meant literally to “hold dear.” As such, it was a perfectly adequate (if somewhat poetic) translation. pistis means confidence, trust—hence faith, faithfulness, fidelity, etc. pisteo is an active verb, not meaning to have, but to do: i.e., “to faith/trust,” not strictly to “have faith”.

    But “believe” over the centuries has more and more taken on the meaning of to hold an opinion, to think, to accept a proposition. The older understanding is still found in the dictionary, but seems to not be prominent in common discourse.

    Hence, TOO has a point, too. Especially if the question becomes: “What does it mean to (do) faith?”
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    12 Oct '07 20:131 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    And yet, many seem to believe that by merely professing a "belief" in Jesus, eternal life is gained. That it doesn't matter if they continue to sin. ---Think of ONe-----

    ...and who's going to decide the cut off point when a man has stopped sinning enough to have "gained" eternal life? What if he lives a holy life but slips up one day , does he then ...[text shortened]... tion by making a mess of things)?

    Isn't this just salavtion by works by another name?
    At what point do you believe that one is granted salvation?

    What do you believe that Jesus was saying in John 8:32-35?
  15. Standard memberRajk999
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    12 Oct '07 20:39
    Originally posted by vistesd
    You know, I keep getting more and more convinced that a great deal of confusion (including within the Christian fold) and unnecessary disagreement derives from “believe” being (or, rather, having become) a really bad translation of pisteo (and “belief” of the noun pistis).

    And I think KM has hit the nail on the head there: when the Bible ...[text shortened]... as a point, too. Especially if the question becomes: “What does it mean to (do) faith?”
    YES, YES YES !!!!

    That simply means your faith must make you DO.
    DO .... that means works.
    Talking, saying you believe, means nothing.

    And the works are clearly described in Matt 25.

    There are many things that people do when they accept Christ which they mistakenly believe will count as good works. In my opinion some of these are :
    - going to church
    - singing of hymns
    - praying
    - participating in the church services like breaking of bread etc

    But these are activities performed for 'SELF'. Works based activities (as defined by Christ) are performed for someone else and are supposed to be SELFLESS.
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