The truth will make you free

Originally posted by epiphinehas
A faith which can be lost cannot be the faith which is a gift from God. You say that countless people make a "determination" to have faith, but having a "determination" implies an origination which arises from oneself rather than from God. Perhaps such determination can create an outwardly pious front, and maybe even be convincing to oneself and to others, but it cannot last because it is based in one's own strength.

You're equivocating on the term 'determination'.

You introduced the term here: "A Christian can determine whether his or her faith is sincere by whether or not the assurance of the Holy Spirit is present in their lives, progressively sanctifying them, and bearing the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc.)."

And it is in that same sense of the term that my claim applies.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
You're equivocating on the term 'determination'.

You introduced the term here: "A Christian can determine whether his or her faith is sincere by whether or not the assurance of the Holy Spirit is present in their lives, progressively sanctifying them, and bearing the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc.)."

And it is in that same sense of the term that my claim applies.

My mistake, I thought you meant to say that countless people have made the determination to be faithful, but you really said that countless people have made the determination that they were saved based on the fruits of the spirit in their lives... Let me reconsider my response.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Then your claim that sincere faith can never be lost is empirically false, for countless people have made just such a determination and then later came to disbelieve in Jesus.

Yes, but you are basing your assumptions on purely subjective accounts. Again, the only way to ultimately tell whose faith is genuine and whose is not, is whether or not that person is able to not only endure to the end, but do so with joy and thanksgiving. You mentioned that my claim is "empirically" false, but by what experimental method have you determined that those who have left the faith were once truly borne of God?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Again, the only way to ultimately tell whose faith is genuine and whose is not, is whether or not that person is able to not only endure to the end, but do so with joy and thanksgiving.

You again speak with a forked tongue.

You assert both:

1. A Christian can determine whether his or her faith is sincere by whether or not the assurance of the Holy Spirit is present in their lives, progressively sanctifying them, and bearing the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc.).

and

2. The only way to ultimately tell whose faith is genuine and whose is not, is whether or not that person is able to not only endure to the end, but do so with joy and thanksgiving.


So, when I asked you earlier if a Christian must wait until death to determine whether his faith is sincere, is the answer Yes (as in 2 above), or No (in which case 1 above is a counterexample)?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
You again speak with a forked tongue.

You assert both:

1. A Christian can determine whether his or her faith is sincere by whether or not the assurance of the Holy Spirit is present in their lives, progressively sanctifying them, and bearing the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc.).

and

2. The only way to ultimat ...[text shortened]... s sincere, is the answer Yes (as in 2 above), or No (in which case 1 above is a counterexample)?

You forgot, "Or both 1 and 2." One is subjective and the other is objective.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
You forgot, "Or both 1 and 2." One is subjective and the other is objective.

I hope you don't mind if I ask you a personal question. Are you dense?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I hope you don't mind if I ask you a personal question. Are you dense?

Perhaps I am. But I can't choose between one and two because both are clearly represented in scripture:

1. A Christian can determine whether his or her faith is sincere by whether or not the assurance of the Holy Spirit is present in their lives, progressively sanctifying them, and bearing the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc.).

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together" (Rom. 8:14-17).

and

2. The only way to ultimately tell whose faith is genuine and whose is not, is whether or not that person is able to not only endure to the end, but do so with joy and thanksgiving.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I can't choose between one and two because both are clearly represented in scripture

"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong."
-- Ayn Rand

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
I hope you don't mind if I ask you a personal question. Are you dense?

He isn't dense. He's just yet to come to the realization that Truth is much less important to him than 'feeling good' about himself. He has pre-conceived ideas about how things work and isn't about to let Truth get in the way of them.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
He isn't dense. He's just yet to come to the realization that Truth is much less important to him than 'feeling good' about himself.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm all about truth. I'm definitely feelin' that.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
"Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong."
-- Ayn Rand

To make matters worse for you, here's a third litmus test for savedness: "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matt. 7:17-19).

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
He isn't dense. He's just yet to come to the realization that Truth is much less important to him than 'feeling good' about himself. He has pre-conceived ideas about how things work and isn't about to let Truth get in the way of them.

How passive aggressive of you; talking about me as if I'm not right here. 🙂

Originally posted by whodey
So you are saying that church is for the most part corrupt and money hungry? By saying this you are saying that ALL church's are this way? I can only assume then that you do not attend church. By telling yourself this you justify your non-attendance. I guess thats comforting as well to tell yourself that church is no good so you should'nt bother attending ...[text shortened]... ake of pleasing him even though they know they are saved despite their screw ups. Crazy huh?

Most if not all of the larger Christian denominations are corrupt and money hungry and many of the smaller ones as well. But I cant say that all are that way because I am not familar with all of them. Catholics are by far the most corrupt of them all and the claim by some that Peter is the founder of the Catholic church is ridiculous.

No I do not attend any church. I did try it a few years ago with the encouragement of a friend. In one of the Sunday morning gatherings they announced that they are going to have special prayers to ask God to stop a programme the Hindus were having .... I walked out after that. I thought to myself ... what a bunch of fools.

Church gatherings today are about :
- dressing up and looking cute, or hot or sexy
- leaders getting richer and richer, greedier and greedier.
- socialising (which is not so bad)
- church politics and corruption eg taking bribes from politicians
- condemning other Christian demoninations and other religions
- getting together to feel good and convince yourself that you are saved.

There are exceptions and I hope I locate one some good day.

People that do the will of Christ will get salvation ... like the good Samaritans of the world. Its a very shallow interpretation to say the church that Christ spoke of is a physical building or an organisation. Its a body of people, His followers .. certainly not the Roman Catholic Church or any other church for that matter. They are people all over the world that live the Christlike life .. and that is the church of Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Most if not all of the larger Christian denominations are corrupt and money hungry and many of the smaller ones as well. But I cant say that all are that way because I am not familar with all of them. Catholics are by far the most corrupt of them all and the claim by some that Peter is the founder of the Catholic church is ridiculous.

No I do not attend a ...[text shortened]... are people all over the world that live the Christlike life .. and that is the church of Christ.

So are you saying that all those associated with the major denominations are corrupt? Does this include all those within the congregation and those within leadership? That is quite a judgement and it includes many people you have no knowledge of. I will not deny that corruption occurs and if it did'nt it would prove the Bible to be in error because it the Bible says we are a fallen race. After all, we see John rebuking the seven churches in various ways. If the church was set up to make perfect people it has failed. Hoewever, if it was set up to be an outreach and encouragment for those who point to one that is perfect then it has been successful in many regards.

I think most people go to church to get something from it. However, could it be that we are there to give something to the church? Could it be that we may be a John speaking in Revelation to help correct and encourage those within the church? Were is the servant attitude of Christ by saying that the church has nothing to offer me so I am through with it?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
How passive aggressive of you; talking about me as if I'm not right here. 🙂

I agree Epi. How rude! Indicative of poor home trainin', I'd say.