The truth will make you free

Originally posted by knightmeister
...I thought it was Biblical and that we were supposed to have assurance of salvation..

I have personally never believed that anyone's salvation is guaranteed (apart from who was listed in the Bible as righteous). I believe in works based salvation as defined by Christ in Matt 25. To me the words of Christ carry far more weight than the words of Paul and Christ never spoke of 'once saved always saved', or anything resembling that.

Basically you accept Christ, you get baptised and you live a life that includes good works ...'love they neighbour'.

If there was a guarantee why would there be a judgment?

Originally posted by Rajk999
YES, YES YES !!!!

That simply means your faith must make you DO.
DO .... that means works.
Talking, saying you believe, means nothing.

And the works are clearly described in Matt 25.

There are many things that people do when they accept Christ which they mistakenly believe will count as good works. In my opinion some of these are :
- going to ...[text shortened]... ivities (as defined by Christ) are performed for someone else and are supposed to be SELFLESS.

Are you beginning to understand now that James is talking about two different kinds of faiths? One which the devils have, and another which produces good works? One is empty (read intellectual), and the other is genuine (read heartfelt). One is double-minded, while in the other the "eye is single."

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have personally never believed that anyone's salvation is guaranteed (apart from who was listed in the Bible as righteous). I believe in works based salvation as defined by Christ in Matt 25. To me the words of Christ carry far more weight than the words of Paul and Christ never spoke of 'once saved always saved', or anything resembling that.

Basically ...[text shortened]... works ...'love they neighbour'.

If there was a guarantee why would there be a judgment?

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1).

Christ says the same thing in John 5:24, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

Everyone who sincerely believes in Jesus Christ has "passed from death into life." That means it's a done deal. Those in Christ Jesus are new creatures henceforth: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:17-19).

It's God's work to reconcile us to Him, not ours. We can only give thanks to the Lord, and respond to God and our neighbor with the same love which we have received undeservedly.

Originally posted by epiphinehas


Everyone who sincerely believes in Jesus Christ has "passed from death into life." That means it's a done deal.

What if a person ceases to sincerely believe in Jesus? Is he still saved?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
What if a person ceases to sincerely believe in Jesus? Is he still saved?

What if they turn to His Great Noodliness? Is he then saved again?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
What if a person ceases to sincerely believe in Jesus? Is he still saved?

A "sincere" faith in Jesus Christ cannot fail because it is a gift from God, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).

Any faith which a person can lose cannot be the faith which God provides as a gift, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us" (1 John 2:19).

"Sincere" faith is demonstrated by "enduring to the end."

Originally posted by epiphinehas


"Sincere" faith is demonstrated by "enduring to the end."

eg a suicide bomber. I cannot help but be impressed by the faith they show....

Originally posted by epiphinehas
A "sincere" faith in Jesus Christ cannot fail because it is a gift from God, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).

Any faith which a person can lose cannot be the faith which God provides as a gift, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would ...[text shortened]... ere of us" (1 John 2:19).

"Sincere" faith is demonstrated by "enduring to the end."

How can a Christian determine if his faith is sincere? Does he have to wait until death to find out?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
How can a Christian determine if his faith is sincere? Does he have to wait until death to find out?

yes.

or rather, beyond death.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
How can a Christian determine if his faith is sincere? Does he have to wait until death to find out?

No, a Christian does not have to wait until death to find out. How could he or she rejoice otherwise? A Christian can determine whether his or her faith is sincere by whether or not the assurance of the Holy Spirit is present in their lives, progressively sanctifying them, and bearing the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc.).

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together" (Rom. 8:14-17).

"God... has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident" (2 Cor. 5:5-6).

"Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Heb. 10:19-23).

EDIT: faith itself gives this assurance. "The evidence of things not seen..." (Heb. 11:1).

Originally posted by snowinscotland
eg a suicide bomber. I cannot help but be impressed by the faith they show....

Faith itself does not save, rather it is what one puts their faith in which saves. No matter how sincere a person is, if their faith is not in the only Son of God, Jesus Christ, then that faith is useless. Only the blood of Christ is sufficient for salvation.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The easy road ..
The path of least resistance ..

Its nice to convince yourself (and its nice financially too as the churches get rich) that once saved always saved. People love to hear that, I guess its comforting.

Edit : But I dont think anyone here believes that its ok to continue to sin. Did anyone say that ?

So you are saying that church is for the most part corrupt and money hungry? By saying this you are saying that ALL church's are this way? I can only assume then that you do not attend church. By telling yourself this you justify your non-attendance. I guess thats comforting as well to tell yourself that church is no good so you should'nt bother attending, no? However, it begs the question as to why Christ told Peter that he would build his church upon him if church is so worthless in and of itself.

Secondly, you assume that if one believes they are saved that they then have a license to sin. I got news for ya you don't need a license. Some people actually love their God and wish to please him just for the sake of pleasing him even though they know they are saved despite their screw ups. Crazy huh?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I assume, then, that you have reached enlightenment? Praytell, how did you reach it?

I second this question. How can one become enlightened? I have a feeling though we will not get an answer. 😛

Originally posted by epiphinehas

A Christian can determine whether his or her faith is sincere by whether or not the assurance of the Holy Spirit is present in their lives, progressively sanctifying them, and bearing the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc.).

Then your claim that sincere faith can never be lost is empirically false, for countless people have made just such a determination and then later came to disbelieve in Jesus.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Then your claim that sincere faith can never be lost is empirically false, for countless people have made just such a determination and then later came to disbelieve in Jesus.

A faith which can be lost cannot be the faith which is a gift from God. You say that countless people make a "determination" to have faith, but having a "determination" implies an origination which arises from oneself rather than from God. Perhaps such determination can create an outwardly pious front, and maybe even be convincing to oneself and to others, but it cannot last because it is based in one's own strength.

The only way to ultimately tell whose faith is genuine and whose is not, is whether or not that person is able to not only endure to the end, but do so with joy and thanksgiving. You mentioned that my claim is "empirically" false, but by what experimental method have you determined that those who have left the faith were once truly borne of God?