The truth will make you free

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
As the answers you seek are in the context of "Christianity", so are the questions you ask. From what I can tell, Jesus sought to help free the world from sin so that people can live in harmony based on truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. I see this as the center of his teachings.

I can answer your questions, but not in the context in which I thin ...[text shortened]... you this: At what point do you believe Jesus begins to "cleanse the world of sin"?

As the answers you seek are in the context of "Christianity", so are the questions you ask. From what I can tell, Jesus sought to help free the world from sin so that people can live in harmony based on truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. I see this as the center of his teachings.
I can answer your questions, but not in the context in which I think they are being asked. What's more, outside of that context, it doesn't seem like there's much point.
--------------Think of One-------------------

Response------------------

The point I am making is this. Jesus believed in Hell for example and he also believed in the living activity of the Holy Spirit and participation in communion . He also believed (at the very least) that his death was important in the context of the covenant between God and man. He also believed in Satan's existence and that he would judge us all at the end of time.

Now , there are any number of quotes from Jesus himself that will confirm this. You know it , I know it , so do most on this forum atheists/thesist alike. So , it seems only reasonable to ascertain how much of what Jesus taught on these issues you are in agreement with does it not? These questions are in the context of what jesus said on them plain and simple. You either subscribe to them or you don't.

I'll make it easy for you ...Jesus said "....the Messiah must suffer and must rise from death three days later..." LUKE 24 :45

So here's a clear example .....do you believe Jesus predicted he would suffer and rise from the dead and that there was a reason this must happen? Yes or No? No stalling this time , please. Do you agree with Jesus or not? This is what he taught , do you sign up to it or not?

(BTW- I have tried to give straight answers to your questions , now you can of course choose not to reciprocate but then you would be changing the rules and not abiding by the principles you ask others to adhere to , it seems only fair that if you ask direct challenging questions to christians then you must be prepared to receive the same in reverse. If you can't , then don't ask the questions. You will end up expecting from others what you will not do yourself. The way out of this iminent checkmate is just to admit that you don't fully subscribe to everything Jesus taught . If you are a man of humility you will do this. If you have too much pride you won't. )

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I think it's clear ThinkOfOne is going to evade your questions, KM, as he has mine. Regardless, his theology is a perversion of Christ's teaching as a whole, and I don't think He is capable of admitting error. It might be time to, as Christ said, shake off the dust from our boots and move on.

Maybe , but even though he selectively quotes Jesus , he says he is a man who has no pride (I think ) and he does have his own principles. However, I am trying to hoist him by his own petard and naturally he won't let me do it , but I think he knows deep down I have a point.

The irony for me is he is an Ok guy and has got some salient points to make . I agree with a lot of what he says. I do find it strange though that for a guy who goes on so much about pride and ego that he doesn't seem to be able to swallow his own pride and admit I've got a point here.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
As the answers you seek are in the context of "Christianity", so are the questions you ask. From what I can tell, Jesus sought to help free the world from sin so that people can live in harmony based on truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. I see this as the center of his teachings.

I can answer your questions, but not in the context in which I thin ...[text shortened]... you this: At what point do you believe Jesus begins to "cleanse the world of sin"?

Let me ask you this: At what point do you believe Jesus begins to "cleanse the world of sin"?---think of one---

Do you really think you have the right to ask me direct questions when you won't answer my questions? If I had a go at answering this would there be any chance you would reciprocate? You play with loaded dice my friend.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I think it's clear ThinkOfOne is going to evade your questions, KM, as he has mine. Regardless, his theology is a perversion of Christ's teaching as a whole, and I don't think He is capable of admitting error. It might be time to, as Christ said, shake off the dust from our boots and move on.

Jesus' teachings or "Christianity's"?

I'd like to have a discussion with you, but as I pointed out earlier, you seem incapable of doing so at this time in your life.

However, Knightmeister does seem capable. I'm sure he and I will be able to work through this as we always have before.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus' teachings or "Christianity's"?

I'd like to have a discussion with you, but as I pointed out earlier, you seem incapable of doing so at this time in your life.

However, Knightmeister does seem capable. I'm sure he and I will be able to work through this as we always have before.

Jesus' teachings or "Christianity's"?

I'd like to have a discussion with you, but as I pointed out earlier, you seem incapable of doing so at this time in your life.

However, Knightmeister does seem capable. I'm sure he and I will be able to work through this as we always have before.

------think of one=============

Yes , we can work stuff out but you do need to be less disingenuous. As far as I can see the theology that Ephin has put forward is in line with what Jesus says and teaches. Jesus did teach that we practice , for example , communion (breaking of bread , drinking of wine) as a symbol of his sacrifice for us to seal the new covenant with God. This has become part of Christianity because Jesus taught us to do this. It's blindingly obvious that this is what he intended for us to do. Do you do it? If not you are not following all of his teachings.

There are some trappings of Christianity that have more to do with ritual and the pride of men than Christ's teachings , but communion and what it symbolises is not one of them. You must see this surely. If you can't then I see little way forward because it will mean we are not living on the same planet.

Originally posted by knightmeister
As the answers you seek are in the context of "Christianity", so are the questions you ask. From what I can tell, Jesus sought to help free the world from sin so that people can live in harmony based on truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. I see this as the center of his teachings.
I can answer your questions, but not in the context in which I thin are a man of humility you will do this. If you have too much pride you won't. )

Well, I thought that telling you that your questions held no meaning for me WAS a direct response. So I gather that you'd like something more concrete.

How about if I pick one and I'll give you a response to the best of my ability?

Do I believe in Hell? I don't know. I can't really say as I even know exactly what it IS. I suppose it's possible that there's a Hell. Do I think it's important to believe in Hell? Well, possibly as a source of motivation for those who aren't otherwise sufficiently moved to live a life of love, compassion, justice, etc., though that particular motivation makes much less sense to me than purely for the sake of love of that life. Do I think that Jesus thought it essential to believe in Hell? Well, I don't recall him saying anything like "Depart from me, you who don't believe in Hell" or even "If you love me, you'll believe in Hell", so I'd have to say no.

I'm sure you'd like something more definitive, but like I keep trying to tell you: the question really doesn't have meaning for me. I was hoping to spare you the pain of reading such a ramble and me the pain of having to write it.

Please don't make me answer the others, though taking another look at them, I'm guessing my answers for some might be something less of a ramble.

Lest you think I'm just being a wise-guy, I'm sorry to say, that's pretty much a core-dump of what's in my mind on that subject, as sorry as it is.

What's even more pathetic, looking at the clock, is I think I spent about an hour trying to get this down.

Originally posted by Nemesio
How can the Truth be a person without also encapsulating the things that such a person teaches?
If Jesus is the Way, Truth and Light, then that which comprises Jesus -- not the least of which
are His teachings -- is what is the Way, Truth and Light.

So, if Jesus is 'your way,' then loving your neighbor and enemy must be your way, too. If Jesus
is 'yo you do which testify to
your graced state serve as your illumination as well.

Nemesio

You can follow a teaching and not know the teacher, true?

You can read for yourself that there are those that claim they did
those things that Jesus taught, yet Jesus said He didn't know them.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom
of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in
heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not
prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and
perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew
you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


There is more to it than just (works or mental acceptance of certain
truths Jesus taught), there is a relationship that is either real or not.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
There is more to it than just (works or mental acceptance of certain
truths Jesus taught), there is a relationship that is either real or not.
Kelly

Yes. And the primary relationship Jesus spoke about with His Disciples was that you will know
Him in the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, the lonely, the naked, and the oppressed.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Yes. And the primary relationship Jesus spoke about with His Disciples was that you will know
Him in the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, the lonely, the naked, and the oppressed.

Nemesio

You are missing the fact that you can know him, period. Yes to what
you said, but what you said could be said simply about human
compassion not necessarily a relationship with God in Christ. The
fact remains He can be found by those that seek Him, not saying that
we are not to do the things you talked about, but at the same time
you can do the things you talked about and miss Christ.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Well, I thought that telling you that your questions held no meaning for me WAS a direct response. So I gather that you'd like something more concrete.

How about if I pick one and I'll give you a response to the best of my ability?

Do I believe in Hell? I don't know. I can't really say as I even know exactly what it IS. I suppose it's possible that t the clock, is I think I spent about an hour trying to get this down.

Thanks for at least having a go at it! (It took you an hour?What?) I would agree that Jesus was far more interested in getting people to follow love and compassion and justice than he was in making sure they got their theology right on hell. This is a good point. However , what emerges here is that there are major differences between your world view and Jesus's . I would guess that you don't believe he rose again or that Satan exists either.

BUT.....the most important aspect is what he believed was the purpose of his death. This was an act of sacrifice on his part that he explicitly linked with passover symbolism and making a new covenant with God. His death for our sins cannot be said to be a peripheral thing. This was an act that was not just words to a gathering crowd but was so important to Jesus that he was prepared to die for it , and you can't get much more centrally important than that can you?

What I am really interested in is whether you subscribe to Jesus's teaching on the purpose of his death and the meaning of communion. Jesus was prepared to give up his life and endure immense suffering to achieve atonement for sin. Therefore , if you do not sign up to it then for you Jesus's death must have been a waste of time I guess.

So if you cast aside something that Jesus (not "Christianity" ) thought was important enough to die for how can you criticise others for not following his teachings? You must kid yourself somehow or re-interpret Jesus's death in some other way that can't be reasonable in my opinion.

Can I conclude that you don't believe in hell , satan , the second coming , communion , the activity of the Holy Spirit , or the atoning sacrifice of Jesus's blood? These are all things Jesus subscribed to. You disagree with him on a lot of things but still feel you can dig away at nominal christians yourself. Why do you do this?

Originally posted by knightmeister
However , what emerges here is that there are major differences between your world view and Jesus's

What you meant was your interpretation of Jesus' world view. But then if Jesus was divine then "world view" just doesn't work as he would have known what the world is rather than having a 'view' of it.

This was an act that was not just words to a gathering crowd but was so important to Jesus that he was prepared to die for it , and you can't get much more centrally important than that can you?
Well that depends... The importance of death is only truly of 'ultimate importance' when one does not believe in eternal life. For God, on the other hand it could easily be totally insignificant.

Jesus was prepared to give up his life and endure immense suffering to achieve atonement for sin.
Again, God coming down to earth is seen as a sacrifice then him going back to heaven is a sacrifice too? Whats with that? And really, what is a little pain to God? Its not like he was even tortured beyond what was quite normal for most criminals of the day. In fact he got it easy.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What you meant was your interpretation of Jesus' world view. But then if Jesus was divine then "world view" just doesn't work as he would have known what the world is rather than having a 'view' of it.

[b]This was an act that was not just words to a gathering crowd but was so important to Jesus that he was prepared to die for it , and you can't get muc ...[text shortened]... red beyond what was quite normal for most criminals of the day. In fact he got it easy.

Its not like he was even tortured beyond what was quite normal for most criminals of the day. In fact he got it easy.---whitey---

Most criminals don't have the sins of the entire world placed on them.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What you meant was your interpretation of Jesus' world view. But then if Jesus was divine then "world view" just doesn't work as he would have known what the world is rather than having a 'view' of it.

[b]This was an act that was not just words to a gathering crowd but was so important to Jesus that he was prepared to die for it , and you can't get muc ...[text shortened]... red beyond what was quite normal for most criminals of the day. In fact he got it easy.

Well that depends... The importance of death is only truly of 'ultimate importance' when one does not believe in eternal life. For God, on the other hand it could easily be totally insignificant. ----whitey-----

Ah yes , the old "Jesus was God therefore death was nothing to him " argument which of course neglects that he was also fully human. He was just as human as you or I , he felt pain , fear and grief and compassion. The fact that he "sweated blood" over his impending fate tells us something.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ah yes , the old "Jesus was God therefore death was nothing to him " argument

Actually it works just as well for other martyrs.

which of course neglects that he was also fully human.
Ahem, not possible.

He was just as human as you or I , he felt pain , fear and grief and compassion. The fact that he "sweated blood" over his impending fate tells us something.
And since when is sweating blood possible for humans? Yep it tells us a lot.

The argument I was making was that death is far less significant if you believe in eternal life. Your whole argument that death is the ultimate sacrifice is based on the assumption that death is the end for the soul but if you believe in eternal life then it is not so. In fact, in this particular case you believe that Jesus rose again, so what exactly did he give up (sacrifice)? I do not know whether you believe that he came back as a flesh and blood human being, but if he did then he didn't loose that, if he didn't then maybe he was better off anyway - no pain, hunger etc. He certainly seemed to gain certain magical abilities such as appearing here and there then disappearing. But as I said, my argument works just as well if we are talking about any Christian martyr or even one of another religion. I am told that some Muslims for example believe that suicide bombing is a shortcut to heaven with possible rewards above and beyond the ordinary person. So how could their act really be called the ultimate sacrifice? Surely it is either work for reward or self delusion?

Originally posted by twhitehead
And since when is sweating blood possible for humans? Yep it tells us a lot.

The medical term is called matidrosis and YES its very possible when under a great deal of stress and is documented medically. Just a simple stroll to Wiki should give you a nice eeeducation.