The Unchristian Christian

Originally posted by Rajk999
Regardless of how something is written, people who want to misinterpret it will do so. The writings of the apostles about being saved by grace is twisted by some to mean you automatically get salvation if you have faith. What it means is because of the kindness of God, he allowed his Son to be sacrificed so that ALL people will have a chance to get salvation ...[text shortened]... rt), if and only if they believe and do good works. Salvation is not guaranteed as some believe.

Matthew 9:2 "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed; and Jesus seeing their FAITH said to the sick of the palsy, "Son be of good cheer, thy sins be forgiven thee." And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, "This man blasphemes". And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, "Wherefore think you evil in your hearts. For which is easier, to say thy sins be forgiven you, or to say arise and walk?"

So here we see someone who has reached out in faith to God and that faith was counted as righteousness. In fact, Christ told him that his sins had been forgiven him because of this act of faith. What say you? What good work did he do that afforded him the oppurtunity for salvation? After all, Christ told him that his sins were forgiven once he saw his faith being excercised. Was seeking Jesus out for healing a good work?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Regardless of how something is written, people who want to misinterpret it will do so. The writings of the apostles about being saved by grace is twisted by some to mean you automatically get salvation if you have faith. What it means is because of the kindness of God, he allowed his Son to be sacrificed so that ALL people will have a chance to get salvation ...[text shortened]... rt), if and only if they believe and do good works. Salvation is not guaranteed as some believe.

I don't believe that Jesus preached the transcendental deliverance of salvation. I think his message was about the self-actualization of salvation. The Kingdom of God will not be delivered to you. You have to build it yourself. To paraphrase 'Field of Dreams', Build it and He will come. All this nonsense about the "sacrifice" is just Pauline mythology.

Originally posted by rwingett
I think the Unitarian Universalists are an interesting group. They have a creedless and non-dogmatic approach to spirituality which places a high emphasis on social activism. For them, it's all about "right action" and not "right belief." I think that's the way to go.

I agree. I cannot imagine Christ condemming to hell, someone who lived a self-less giving life, and granting salvation to someone that 'believed' with their mouth only.

Originally posted by spiritmangr8ness
Quite possibly the bible may be just a book about redemption and the restorative power of becoming. Christ message of transformation through mind renewal was the revelution. He urged us to see things differently in truth and light. If I choose to stay in the light I will do well. His challenge was not to governments but to those sheperds who had cha ...[text shortened]... . Stop allowing people to complicate your relationship with our Father and you can do miracles.

I agree. In the old days, I guess the Pharisees did not have the teachings of CHrist to guide them. So whats the excuse of our religious leaders. Why cant they lead their followers to live lives that Christ asked us to live?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Regardless of how something is written, people who want to misinterpret it will do so. The writings of the apostles about being saved by grace is twisted by some to mean you automatically get salvation if you have faith. What it means is because of the kindness of God, he allowed his Son to be sacrificed so that ALL people will have a chance to get salvation ...[text shortened]... rt), if and only if they believe and do good works. Salvation is not guaranteed as some believe.

I would suggest reading;
James chapter 2, verses 14-26
and verse 26 says,
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

James tells us here in verses 14-26 that if you have true faith in Jesus you will have good works also. The two go together.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD! meaning, you really don't have true faith in Jesus if you don't have good works also.
If you have true faith in Jesus you will have good works also. And you will enjoy doing them.
But you also can't good work your way to God either.
Faith and good works go together. Good works naturally comes from a true believer in Christ.
(The two go together like peas and carrots.) quoted by Forrest Gump. 🙂

Originally posted by whodey
Matthew 9:2 "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed; and Jesus seeing their FAITH said to the sick of the palsy, "Son be of good cheer, thy sins be forgiven thee." And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, "This man blasphemes". And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, "Wherefore think you evil in your hearts ...[text shortened]... n once he saw his faith being excercised. Was seeking Jesus out for healing a good work?

Whodey, a few exceptions - the thief on the cross, the man sick of the palsy , and any other ones you come up with, does not void the rule. Christ is looking for good works. He will certainly make many exeptions to that as he is the judge and He "knoweth the heart". But anyone who believes that they can simply say "I believe" and get salvation, is going to be in for a shock.

The problem with good works alone is that no one can do them. Even those who are believers or unbelievers. If you can look into the heart of a person doing good works, there are motives we cannot not see...are the motives pure?
Without a "new" heart no one can truly do good works. The bible says every one is born with a sick and incurable heart with the propensity to do evil. It says ....

Rom 3:10-20
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one."
13 "Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(NKJ)

Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
(NIV)

When a person comes to Christ, repents and makes Him Lord....then....God gives him/her a "new" heart. This is called the "new man"....then we renew our minds, that is, we make our minds say what God says....this takes work, time....and in all reality what we do is allow God to work a change in us...then we do the good works, out of love. Anything else is fake and we only deceive ourselves.....

Originally posted by Rajk999
Whodey, a few exceptions - the thief on the cross, the man sick of the palsy , and any other ones you come up with, does not void the rule. Christ is looking for good works. He will certainly make many exeptions to that as he is the judge and He "knoweth the heart". But anyone who believes that they can simply say "I believe" and get salvation, is going to be in for a shock.

So you are saying that ALL those who come to faith in Christ are saved at that instant, however, they can later loose their salvation via sinful ways? If so, this is something entirely different from claiming that a set number of good works are needed to be saved.

>> James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

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(1) I don’t think Rajk is talking about any kind of “quota,” or perfection.

(2) I don’t think the fact that the Pauline epistolary corpus is large, compared to James’ one letter can be taken to overwhelm, the clear summation of verse 24 (let alone Jesus’ sayings): “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

(3) Eastern Orthodox Christianity uses the term synergia to describe the combination of grace and our own efforts. (In that tradition, salvation—soterias, making whole or well—is a process, not an event.)

—Whether one takes it in some “transcendental” sense or not, rwingett’s comment about “the self-actualization of salvation” is on point. (I would take it in a more “zen” sense; I think he intends it in a more “social” sense, but the two need not be mutually exclusive.)

>> Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus.

>> 1st Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that in a race the runners all compete, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it. 25 Athletes exercise self-control in all things; they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable one. 26 So I do not run aimlessly, nor do I box as though beating the air; 27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

(4) I am often confused when Christians seem to use the word “believe” to describe what is essentially a “work of the head,” and then otherwise contrast that with “works.” Is faith a kind of work, or not? (Nevertheless, James seems clearly to be speaking about putting faith into action.)

_______________________________

On the flip side—

Whether one is speaking in religious terms or not, trying to continually justify one’s own existence by how well one is fulfilling one’s obligations or duty, and judging oneself harshly when one fails or falls short, can be a recipe for disaster and a psychological crack-up. (And you might add to the mix, treating/judging everyone else the same way.)

aphesis hamartion (forgiveness of sins) means—quite literally—release-from, setting-free-from, or letting-go-of sin/error/failure/wrong-doing (hamartia: literally “missing the mark” ).

Be honest, make amends where warranted, but let go of the past, treat yourself grace-fully, and move on. “The things behind indeed forgetting, and to the things before stretching forth” (Young’s Literal Translation) is sound counsel, religious context aside.

Originally posted by vistesd
>> James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 [b]So faith by itself, if i ...[text shortened]... stretching forth” (Young’s Literal Translation) is sound counsel, religious context aside.

In Romans it talks about "renewing the mind". So I would agree with you. The mind is in the head.😉


Rom 12:1-3

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
(NKJ)

So in my estimation, "prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God" would probably be good works.🙂

[/b]Yeah, I was being a bit “flip” with my terminology. 😕

I would take “but be transformed by the renewing of your mind” to be a daily endeavor. Thanks for bringing that to the table.

Originally posted by vistesd
Yeah, I was being a bit “flip” with my terminology. 😕

I would take “but be transformed by the renewing of your mind” to be a daily endeavor. Thanks for bringing that to the table.[/b]

Boy, is it ever!🙂

Originally posted by vistesd
>> James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 [b]So faith by itself, if i stretching forth” (Young’s Literal Translation) is sound counsel, religious context aside.

I wish I had a Rec...[/b]

Originally posted by Rajk999
Many confuse understanding the Bible, which is really a very complex matter, with living the life that leads to salvation, which according to Christ is very simple to understand.

So was Christ wrong or are most people stupid?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So was Christ wrong or are most people stupid?

Good question. I wish someone else would answer it though.

There are many that think the teachings of Christ are not applicable today and that Paul and the apostles carry more weight.

Personally I would ignore Paul and follow what Christ said where they are conflicts.