The Unchristian Christian

Originally posted by Rajk999
Personally I would ignore Paul and follow what Christ said where they are conflicts.

Have you given away all your possessions yet?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Good question. I wish someone else would answer it though.

There are many that think the teachings of Christ are not applicable today and that Paul and the apostles carry more weight.

Personally I would ignore Paul and follow what Christ said where they are conflicts.

Luke 8:10 "Jesus said, The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand."

Matthew 11:25 "At that tikme Jesus answered them and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes."

As far as Paul and the other apostles carrying more weight, who wrote of Jesus? Was it Christ himself? In fact, it was Paul and the apostles. Therefore, what other source do we have of what Jesus was all about? Why did Jesus choose the apostles and Paul? Was it not to tell the world his story? I understand why you don't like Paul, however. If you did, you would have to change your theology around a bit. In fact, many, many people have similar problems but not for all the same reasons. I suppose Paul's account in Acts of being converted on the road to Damascus would have to be labeled a falsehood as well since it says that Jesus appeared to him as asked him why he persecuted him and subsequently chose him to preach the gospel. Personally, I think every Bible should come with a botttle of white out. 😛

Originally posted by twhitehead
Have you given away all your possessions yet?

Was expecting that question from others not you but the answer is :
Nope ... dont plan to either. Christ's suggested that was the way to 'perfection', and I am not capable of that. What He said in Matt 25 is more manageable and can lead to salvation, and thats what my personal goal is. All it requires is that you dont refuse giving charity, you dont refuse to help others in need, you visit the sick and fatherless and widowed etc etc. Its a life-long effort of helping and giving as opposed to accumulation of personal wealth which so many people are obsessed with today.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Was expecting that question from others not you but the answer is :
Nope ... dont plan to either. Christ's suggested that was the way to 'perfection', and I am not capable of that. What He said in Matt 25 is more manageable and can lead to salvation, and thats what my personal goal is. All it requires is that you dont refuse giving charity, you dont refuse ...[text shortened]... g as opposed to accumulation of personal wealth which so many people are obsessed with today.

So if Christ asked you to give up all of your possessions as he did the rich man he encountered your response would be, "What you are suggesting is that that is the road to perfection, and I am not capable of that.?" He would then say to you what he said about the rich man which is that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.

Originally posted by whodey
So if Christ asked you to give up all of your possessions as he did the rich man he encountered your response would be, "What you are suggesting is that that is the road to perfection, and I am not capable of that.?" He would then say to you what he said about the rich man which is that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.

He could not have said that to me because I am not rich and I dont have 'great possessions'. If you have understood the spirit of the teachings of Christ you would know that he does not expect perfection, He wants some kind of effort. He does not want you (not you personally) to claim that 'I am saved' and then sit back and relax and do nothing. This is know many Christians do.

Originally posted by Rajk999
He could not have said that to me because I am not rich and I dont have 'great possessions'. If you have understood the spirit of the teachings of Christ you would know that he does not expect perfection, He wants some kind of effort. He does not want you (not you personally) to claim that 'I am saved' and then sit back and relax and do nothing. This is know many Christians do.

Its starting to look like Christs teachings are not as clear cut and easy to understand as you earlier claimed.

In fact it is starting to look like a case of 'interpret according to your abilities.'

Originally posted by twhitehead
Its starting to look like Christs teachings are not as clear cut and easy to understand as you earlier claimed.

In fact it is starting to look like a case of 'interpret according to your abilities.'

Christ said many things, but this is the summary of the life he expects people to live before they get salvation (there are exceptions as Whodey likes to point out). What exactly is not clear here ?

Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Was expecting that question from others not you but the answer is :
Nope ... dont plan to either. Christ's suggested that was the way to 'perfection', and I am not capable of that.

Why are you 'not capable'? Do you not have enough faith? If I believed without any doubt that something was the way to 'perfection' I would do absolutely anything in my power to do it. Why wont you?

What He said in Matt 25 is more manageable and can lead to salvation, and thats what my personal goal is.
You are missing the whole point of the message. You are not trying to 'love thy neighbor' you are trying to buy your way into heaven. Charity for the sake of going to heaven is not an expression of love.

All it requires is that you dont refuse giving charity, you dont refuse to help others in need, you visit the sick and fatherless and widowed etc etc. Its a life-long effort of helping and giving as opposed to accumulation of personal wealth which so many people are obsessed with today.
But of course you only give to charity 'within reason' and only visit the sick when it is convenient.
Maybe the people you are criticizing just find the whole 'faith without works' strategy 'much more manageable'.

Originally posted by Rajk999
What exactly is not clear here ?

What is not clear is why you chose a passage that supported your wants and desires and ignored any passages that contradict your views.
What is not clear about the whole 'camel through the eye of a needle' story?

Originally posted by Rajk999
What exactly is not clear here ?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Until you are the poorest person you know and work full time helping others, you are guilty of over looking 'one of the least of these'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What is not clear is why you chose a passage that supported your wants and desires and ignored any passages that contradict your views.
What is not clear about the whole 'camel through the eye of a needle' story?

Simple. A follower of Christ should live a life defined by CHrist. Christ does not expect perfection although He pointed the way to it. Perfection is OPTION and not a requirement.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Until you are the poorest person you know and work full time helping others, you are guilty of over looking 'one of the least of these'.

Thats an extreme interpretation and not in the spirit of the teachings of CHrist.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Simple. A follower of Christ should live a life defined by CHrist. Christ does not expect perfection although He pointed the way to it. Perfection is OPTION and not a requirement.

You have not answered the question. There are plenty of other passages which contradict your claim. Why are you ignoring them. Where does it say that giving up your worldly goods is optional?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Thats an extreme interpretation and not in the spirit of the teachings of CHrist.

I thought you said understanding Christs teachings were simple. It sounds like you are having trouble understanding them. I would say that it is most definitely 'in the spirit of the teachings of Christ'.
In fact verse 45 in your quote makes it quite clear. (you are the person speaking in verse 44).

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why are you 'not capable'? Do you not have enough faith? If I believed without any doubt that something was the way to 'perfection' I would do absolutely anything in my power to do it. Why wont you?

[b]What He said in Matt 25 is more manageable and can lead to salvation, and thats what my personal goal is.
You are missing the whole point of the me ...[text shortened]... iticizing just find the whole 'faith without works' strategy 'much more manageable'.[/b]

First and most important ... the 'faith without works' strategy, is clearly outside of, and even contrary to the teachings of Christ. So Im not sure how any serious CHristion can 'pick that option'.

At the other end of the spectrum are those people who (I dont know of any, but Im sure there are some) try to go for 'perfection', which is what you seem to imply that Christ is after.

As for 'buying your way into heaven', Im not quite sure what that means but if I do as you suggest and sell all that I have and give it to the poor and become the poorest person around, is'nt that 'buying my way into heaven ?