Originally posted by Rajk999anyone who believes that they can simply say "I believe" and get salvation, is going to be in for a shock.
Whodey, a few exceptions - the thief on the cross, the man sick of the palsy , and any other ones you come up with, does not void the rule. Christ is looking for good works. He will certainly make many exeptions to that as he is the judge and He "knoweth the heart". But anyone who believes that they can simply say "I believe" and get salvation, is going to be in for a shock.
Nobody... I mean NOBODY in this forum has even suggested that simply saying you believe is sufficient. YOU are the only one propounding that belief here, and you've been stubbornly kicking that dead horse ad nauseam. It wouldn't be so bad, in fact I'd agree with you, but your criticisms overstep mere empty declarations to include the entire doctrine of justification by faith. JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH AND MERELY SAYING YOU BELIEVE ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
Originally posted by twhiteheadYoure a hard judge.
And hence you are not trying. You are burying your talent.
[b]I am however capable of living the life described by Christ in Matt 25. But your interpretation of Matt 25 is differennt from mine.
So what is your interpretation of Matt 25?[/b]
I dont think Christ is going to judge anyone so harshly.
My interpretation of Matt 25 is that as you go about your daily lives there are people around you that will need your help, your time, and often your financial contribution in order to survive or get by. Your job is to help them as much as possible and do not ignore them.
I know you are being difficult because you are pretending not to know what Christ said. The parable of the good samaritan, the samaritan passed by the helpless man. He did not have to go and seek out people to help. In the story of the rich man a Lazarus, Lazarus was sitting at the rich man's gates. There is no need to go seek out every poor person. There are people that need help in most societies. I dont live in a rich neighbourhood. I live in a 3W country and run a small restaurant next to a SLUM. Most people would turn their nose up at even driving pass this area. I promise you, I have many opportunities to help the poor. If I fail, its my own fault and I have no need to go seek out more people to help.
Originally posted by epiphinehasEpiphinehas, I cant remember the thread, but you said to me that someone can get salvation simply by having faith and not doing any good works. If I misread you I apologise.
[b]anyone who believes that they can simply say "I believe" and get salvation, is going to be in for a shock.
Nobody... I mean NOBODY in this forum has even suggested that simply saying you believe is sufficient. YOU are the only one propounding that belief here, and you've been stubbornly kicking that dead horse ad nauseam. It wo ...[text shortened]... JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH AND MERELY SAYING YOU BELIEVE ARE NOT THE SAME THING.[/b]
Originally posted by Rajk999But verses 24 and 25 make it quite clear that he would.
Youre a hard judge.
I dont think Christ is going to judge anyone so harshly.
My interpretation of Matt 25 is that as you go about your daily lives there are people around you that will need your help, your time, and often your financial contribution in order to survive or get by. Your job is to help them as much as possible and do not ignore them.
But "as much as possible" doesn't seem to include giving away your personal possessions? How much is "as much as possible"?
I know you are being difficult because you are pretending not to know what Christ said. The parable of the good samaritan, the samaritan passed by the helpless man. He did not have to go and seek out people to help.
Again you are intentionally missing the whole point of a parable. How can you possibly think that the main point of that parable was to show that it is permissible to only help those you come in direct contact with?
I thought that parable was to show that it is more important to love your neighbor than to be Jewish.
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes, you've repeatedly misread me. In fact, I've found that to be the hallmark of all our discussions here.
Epiphinehas, I cant remember the thread, but you said to me that someone can get salvation simply by having faith and not doing any good works. If I misread you I apologise.
What I've established over and over again is that genuine faith will always give rise to works, while an empty declaration of faith will not. 'Having faith' and 'having an empty declaration of faith' are two separate things. One saves, the other doesn't.
Faith without good works is like an apple tree without any apples. But, on the other hand, you can't have any apples without an apple tree either. That is, faith alone does not save, but neither can works alone save. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is worthless.
Where you err is in placing works before faith, as if an apple could come into being without the apple tree to support it. But it is impossible to please God without faith.
Originally posted by epiphinehasI maintain that this dichotomy between 'faith' and 'works' is a false one brought about by Paul's mythologizing of Jesus. Faith and works are the same thing. Doing good works is simply a manifestation of one's faith. Or to put it the other way, If you do not do good works then you do not, and cannot, have faith. The two are synonymous and inseparable.
Yes, you've repeatedly misread me. In fact, I've found that to be the hallmark of all our discussions here.
What I've established over and over again is that genuine faith will always give rise to works, while an empty declaration of faith will not. 'Having faith' and 'having an empty declaration of faith' are two separate things. One saves, the ot ...[text shortened]... ithout the apple tree to support it. But it is impossible to please God without faith.
The lamentable dichotomy between them was introduced by Paul, with his cult of the personhood of Jesus, whereby faith became a declaration of belief in his death and resurrection. At that point, faith became divorced from works. The result has been an almost complete abandonment of Jesus' original program of social activism.
Originally posted by rwingettFaith certainly does involve a declaration. Paul is right about that. It is your misunderstanding of Paul and the Gospel which brings you to the conclusion that Paul is responsible for divorcing faith from works. Read Romans chapter 8 and you will see otherwise.
I maintain that this dichotomy between 'faith' and 'works' is a false one brought about by Paul's mythologizing of Jesus. Faith and works are the same thing. Doing good works is simply a manifestation of one's faith. Or to put it the other way, If you do not do good works then you do not, and cannot, have faith. The two are synonymous and inseparable.
T ...[text shortened]... lt has been an almost complete abandonment of Jesus' original program of social activism.
Good luck achieving social equality without God's help. The law of God's kingdom, love your neighbor as yourself, will not be accomplished until Jesus Christ returns in glory and establishes His Kingdom at the end of the age.
Some things are simply not in man's power to accomplish.
Originally posted by epiphinehasYour's is ultimately a defeatist theology. You sit around, wring your hands, and opine that we're all doomed. Nothing we do can make a difference, so why even try? Yeah, we could do a good work here and there, but it's just a drop of water in an ocean of evil. You mouth pious words, but you don't really believe it'll do any good, so you sit around and wait for god to fix everything for you.
Faith certainly does involve a declaration. Paul is right about that. It is your misunderstanding of Paul and the Gospel which brings you to the conclusion that Paul is responsible for divorcing faith from works. Read Romans chapter 8 and you will see otherwise.
Good luck achieving social equality without God's help. The law of God's kingdom, love ...[text shortened]... is Kingdom at the end of the age.
Some things are simply not in man's power to accomplish.
Well, if I was god, do you know what I'd say? "Get off your fat a-- and fix things yourself. Quit sitting around waiting for me to do all the work. How many millenia is it going to take for you to realize that I ain't sending Jesus back again? And if you make that kingdom, by the sweat of your own brow, then my spirit will enter into that kingdom and you will have my blessing. So get to it, you whiners, or maybe I'll just send another flood down on your sorry heads!"
Yeah...that's what I'd say.
Originally posted by epiphinehasJames says Abraham and Rehab were justified by works. Dosent this place works before faith ? Also
Where you err is in placing works before faith, .
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Its possible to show faith BY DOING GOOD WORKS then ?
How can you therefore say that doing works alone is worthless.
Doing good works implies that faith exists and its proof of faith.
WORKS AUTOMATICALLY IMPLIES FAITH.
FAITH DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY IMPLY WORKS.
FAITH BY ITSELF IS WORTHLESS.
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Originally posted by rwingettI'm a pessimist in that I understand the limitations of what man can do to improve himself by his own power. I'm an optimist in that I believe Almighty God will accomplish for us what we cannot. This does not mean I am opposed to effort, which you mistakenly assume, but it does mean that I am opposed to earning God's favor. And it also means that I'm opposed to the idea that man can usher in God's Kingdom through his own human efforts.
Your's is ultimately a defeatist theology. You sit around, wring your hands, and opine that we're all doomed. Nothing we do can make a difference, so why even try? Yeah, we could do a good work here and there, but it's just a drop of water in an ocean of evil. You mouth pious words, but you don't really believe it'll do any good, so you sit around and wait ll just send another flood down on your sorry heads!"
Yeah...that's what I'd say.
The bible tells us that God has planned the works His followers should walk in before the foundation of the world. These particular works can only be accomplished by abiding in Christ, through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. And we can only receive the empowerment of the Holy Spirit insofar as we "take up our cross", as Christ commands.
The cross represents utter personal defeat. The victory is in the resurrection, which only God's supernatural power can accomplish. The real battle is not "out there" in society somewhere; the real battle is "in here", the personal will (oneself). What Christ wants more than anything is that we become 'living sacrifices' so that we may bear fruit for the Kingdom. He commands us to "take up our crosses daily" in order that our wills be renounced, so that God's will can be accomplished. Our work is to present ourselves as living sacrifices, and it's God's work "to will and to do of His good pleasure" in us.
A. W. Tozer said it like this: within every man's heart there is a throne and a cross. Men naturally wish to sit upon the throne and govern their own lives. And nobody can make him climb up onto the cross. But only until a man crawls up onto that cross will God be able to sit upon the throne of his heart.
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Originally posted by Rajk999How can you therefore say that doing works alone is worthless.
James says Abraham and Rehab were justified by works. Dosent this place works before faith ? Also
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Its possible to show faith BY DOING GOOD WORKS then ?
How can you therefore say that doing works alone is wo ...[text shortened]... TICALLY IMPLIES FAITH.
FAITH DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY IMPLY WORKS.
FAITH BY ITSELF IS WORTHLESS.
Doing good works implies that faith exists and its proof of faith.
Because without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). Works without faith CANNOT by definition be God-ordained works, i.e. the works which God has prepared for his faithful ones.
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).
It may be a "good" work, but if it is not God-ordained (if a particular work is not Holy Spirit led), then it is not proof of faith.
There are many atheists who strive to be good people and show good works, but it doesn't mean they have God's Spirit living in them or that they have faith in Jesus Christ. Their works will not save them, because their works do not glorify God (their works are not God-ordained).
You keep saying that God will condemn those who do not have works, but it is equally true that God will condemn those who do not have faith.
Originally posted by epiphinehasIn my interpretation, mankind does not build the Kingdom of god. They build a Kingdom worthy of god's grace. If they are successful then god's spirit will enter into it and make it the Kingdom of god. That is their salvation. It is a collective and social salvation based in this lifetime. But its necessary for mankind to do the groundwork to show they are worthy of being saved at all.
I'm a pessimist in that I understand the limitations of what man can do to improve himself by his own power. I'm an optimist in that I believe Almighty God will accomplish for us what we cannot. This does not mean I am opposed to effort, which you mistakenly assume, but it does mean that I am opposed to earning God's favor. And it also means that I'm ...[text shortened]... s up onto that cross will God be able to sit upon the throne of his heart.
Contrast this with a theology that requires little from you except a profession of faith. A theology where god will come in his own good time, for some inexplicable reason, and deliver the kingdom into your lap. It let's you off the hook from having to do anything. Sure, you could do something, but it would be superfluous. You can just sit back and wait. Is mankind perfect, or can they do anything by their own power? Perhaps not. But I think god would require a little more effort from his followers and a little less prayer.
But now here's the important part. With transcendental apocalypticism, it is necessary that god physically exists and that he physically delivers the goods in person. With a realized eschatology of the type I have described, god's physical existence is not necessary. His presence could be taken as being purely symbolic. What does this do? It opens it up to everyone, regardless of their specific belief. If you are willing to work for a more just society, free from exploitation and oppression, then you are doing god's work. Whether you actually believe that god exists is of secondary importance. By stripping away all credal, dogmatic, and sectarian differences, you are creating a universally accessible movement for social change. Any god worth his salt would reward the "right action" of the individual and not be so concerned that he maintain the "right belief." And if that god doesn't actually exist, he can still act as a motivating idea to help people reach higher than they might have otherwise.
__________
For this particular post, I am drawing upon Universal Unitarianism, coupling parts of that with research into the historical Jesus, and sprinkling lightly with Hutterite theology.
Originally posted by Rajk999It isn't by what people say that you should be looking to, but the fruit
I tend to be of the opinion (and I know I will be corrected) that many Bible scholars or anyone overly familiar with the Bible often use their knowledge to justify wrongdoing. I am a Christian myself, I believe in God and I believe that one day we will ALL face judgement day. So I really hate to admit this but the most upright, honest, caring, loving and giv ...[text shortened]... ted a breed of greedy self-absorbed monsters, much like the Pharisees in the time of Christ ?
of their lives. I recall someone saying once I forget who, "The more
he talked about how honest he was, the more we watched out silver."
or something like that. Jesus sorts people out by those that know him
not those who make the claim that they do.
Kelly
Forgive me if I am repeating a previous post. I read only the pages 1 and 5, so...
I wanted to share my view on something that seams to be tripping some folks here up. There are may posts which seam to indicate that faith in God and belief in God are the same thing. To believe in God does not require you to put your trust in God. It does not require you to rely and depend apon God. Faith does.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder."
-- James 2:18-20
I have faith the in chair that I'm sitting in. I depend on it not to let me fall. If you give me a termite ridden chair that wobbles when I blow on it, I may believe in the chair, for it certainly exists, but I won't have faith in the chair. I won't rely on it to hold my weight.
Therefore to have faith in God is more than a statement or a belief in existance. It is a way of life. To have faith in God is to rely on His guidence, to believe in His Word, to do His will.
Consider Jonah. God told him to go to Nineveh, and he refused and fled. Jonah certainly believed in God but did not have faith in him, for he failed to trust in God.
In the same way, when God makes his will known to us, we abide by it and thus we perform good works. Unless it is God's will for you to sit on your couch and never interact with anyone, having faith in God will result in good works.
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Originally posted by AProdigyI think we all agree with you.
Forgive me if I am repeating a previous post. I read only the pages 1 and 5, so...
I wanted to share my view on something that seams to be tripping some folks here up. There are may posts which seam to indicate that faith in God and belief in God are the same thing. To believe in God does not require you to put your trust in God. It does not require ...[text shortened]... friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.[/i]
The little point of contention is whether or not works (before faith) can justify someone and therefore lead to salvation.
I think thats possible because someone can demonstrate their faith through their works ie the works came first. As in the case of Rehab the harlot. Epiphinehas disagrees.