The value of Jesus

@rajk999 said
I have no doubt that you reject the commandments of Christ, keeping of which is
critical for eternal life.

It sounds as if you are putting teachings on works above Jesus Himself.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
No wonder you dropped out of the discussion if that weak explanation is the best you could muster.

Meanwhile, I'll go on imagining Jesus standing there watching people in their torment, perhaps sipping a cup of tea.

You don’t spend a great deal of time answering questions put to you on that topic, you proclaim your views and fail to explain them. If you are going to speak about scripture don’t cherry pick a couple you have to look at the whole!

@kellyjay said
You don’t spend a great deal of time answering questions put to you on that topic, you proclaim your views and fail to explain them. If you are going to speak about scripture don’t cherry pick a couple you have to look at the whole!

Kelly, I explain my views until I am blue in the face, and still you pop along to say I haven't explained anything. I can only conclude you don't read the replies that I make.

And again, if the bible is the word of God then you have to justify and defend 'every cherry,' even the ones you know yourself are a bit sour.

@kellyjay said
It sounds as if you are putting teachings on works above Jesus Himself.

You dont realise that Jesus preached to many thousands and thousands who believed Him and left rejoicing, doing the good works, and living righteously. These people will get eternal life in the Kingdom of God, said Jesus, simply because they followed His commandments.

These people had no clue
- that the man speaking to them was the Son of God
- that He was going to die for their sins
- that He would be raised from the dead
- that there was any reward to get or eternal life to enjoy.

They simply did the right thing because it is the right thing to do. I guess a church Christian will find these concepts alien. Knowledge is nothing and there is no virtue in knowing or proclaiming to know about Christ. If that what you think then your faith is dead.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Kelly, I explain my views until I am blue in the face, and still you pop along to say I haven't explained anything. I can only conclude you don't read the replies that I make.

And again, if the bible is the word of God then you have to justify and defend 'every cherry,' even the ones you know yourself are a bit sour.

You stated what you believe and when I start questioning you, nothing and here you are complaining about another doing that to you.

@rajk999 said
You dont realise that Jesus preached to many thousands and thousands who believed Him and left rejoicing, doing the good works, and living righteously. These people will get eternal life in the Kingdom of God, said Jesus, simply because they followed His commandments.

These people had no clue
- that the man speaking to them was the Son of God
- that He was going to die f ...[text shortened]... rtue in knowing or proclaiming to know about Christ. If that what you think then your faith is dead.

So again works before Jesus?

@kellyjay said
So again works before Jesus?

No. The teachings Jesus before the teachings of the church.
One is keeping the commandments, the other is mouth worship
One is life, the other is damnation.
One is the wise man, the other is the foolish man.

@kellyjay said
You stated what you believe and when I start questioning you, nothing and here you are complaining about another doing that to you.

You question things I have already explained. Invariably you go back and realize this, and then apologize. How about we break that pattern and you actually read what I post the first time around?

No. The teachings Jesus before the teachings of the church.

Christian brothers and sisters, where ever you are, the church is called "the pillar and base of the truth"

"But if I [Paul] delay, I write these things to you that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth." (1 Tim. 3:15)

@sonship said

No. The teachings Jesus before the teachings of the church.

Christian brothers and sisters, where ever you are, the church is called "the pillar and base of the truth"

"But if I [Paul] delay, I write these things to you that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth." (1 Tim. 3:15)

The church to which you refer is not the church in the days of the Apostles. Dont fool yourself. The Christian church of today is corrupt, greedy, worldly, full of sexually depravity and preach false doctrines.

The early church did the following
- members had no private property
- shared goods among the members as they had need
- they had powers of the Holy Spirit and did miracles
- preached the doctrine of Christ and practiced it as well.

Brothers and sisters of Christ are all the good and righteous people who follow the commandments of Christ. Churches generally are not brothers and sisters in Christ because they have instead discouraged the following of commandments.

Your church is on the road to damnation.
-

@Rajk999

The church to which you refer is not the church in the days of the Apostles. Dont fool yourself.

If you didn't notice, there were problems in the first church in Jerusalem. And the Corinthian church had lots of problems.

Paul didn't write that church WAS the pillar and base of the truth.

The early churches were not utopias. They were on the proper local ground though. If there is an exception to one church for one city in the New Testament, in your next post indicate which one.

The Christian church of today is corrupt, greedy, worldly, full of sexually depravity and preach false doctrines.

Paul did write about apostasy. But he did not write that the church will one day no longer be the pillar and base of the truth.

The early church did the following
- members had no private property

That was a situation in Jerusalem after the day of Pentecost.
It was wonderful. However it was not a legality. And latter on disciples in the churches had personal property.

Paul wrote of his cloak, his parchments.
He also wrote of the household of this or that person.

He speaks of the house as a possession of saints who hosted the local church.

He spoke of the church which was in "THIER HOUSE" - Prisca and Priscilla. So they owned a house. (Romans 16:5)

In Rome this apostolic couple had a house dedicated to the meeting of the saints. And in Ephesus also they owned a house for the same purpose.

In Romans 16 also Paul also says "Greet the church in Aristobulus house." (v. 10). . So this disciple owned a house too.

Some may say it is household. But I think that he owned private property and dedicated it to the Lord's purpose, is indicated one way or another.


But the initial outpouring of the Spirit causing them to be near completely communal in Jerusalem is evident.

- shared goods among the members as they had need

Sop the real issue is generous sharing rather than ownership.

- they had powers of the Holy Spirit and did miracles
- preached the doctrine of Christ and practiced it as well.

I see no reason to believe where faith is the power of the Holy Spirit would not occasionally be manifested today.

And in Galatians Paul certainly preached the "doctrine of Christ". But Judaizers like you bitterly opposed him there also, wanting to keep one foot in law keeping of Moses.

Brothers and sisters of Christ are all the good and righteous people who follow the commandments of Christ. Churches generally are not brothers and sisters in Christ because they have instead discouraged the following of commandments.

Your church is on the road to damnation.

You may threaten all you wish. The church is the pillar and base of the truth. Where is the verse where Paul taught that after THIS DATE the church will NO LONGER be "the pillar and base of the truth"

As long as we uphold in our living Christ, the truth, the truth has a pillar and a base.

The book "The Pilgrim Church" by E.H. Broadbent is a history lesson showing that in every age of the church for the last many centuries there was always at some place a faithful group of standing in grace and truth in spite of surrounding degradation.

The church IS now and for eternity the pillar and base of the truth.

@Rajk999

Your church is on the road to damnation.

I have no other universal church that is mine.

We meet according to localities as is shown in the New Testament.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
You question things I have already explained. Invariably you go back and realize this, and then apologize. How about we break that pattern and you actually read what I post the first time around?

I apologize for things I have said that I should not have. You do not answer questions I've put to you on several topics not just this one. You quite good at telling me what you believe, then it is as if that is all that is required, I should take it as enough.

@rajk999 said
No. The teachings Jesus before the teachings of the church.
One is keeping the commandments, the other is mouth worship
One is life, the other is damnation.
One is the wise man, the other is the foolish man.

Anyone can give teaching, which I believe was Duke's point. Bob could have given the sermon on the mount, and Joe Shmoo could have said, "I have come from the Father", Eric the Mediocre could have said, believe in me. None of them are the Son of God; none of them are the Word made flesh; none of them actually could have been telling the truth if they said, "Before Abraham, I am.", stressing the "I am" let alone ages after Abraham's life. John Doe could have said, "I am the way, truth, life. No one comes to the Father except through me, and we could laugh him to scorn.

You cannot remove Jesus from Christianity; the Word of God is who He was, is, and will be. All other truth-tellers so-called from other world belief systems are not necessary; another can take their place with the same message, not so with Jesus it wasn't just His Words, but who He is that makes all the difference.

Therefore it is the PERSON of Christ you need, it is not just obeying His Words, but Jesus Himself as your redeemer is required.

@kellyjay said
Anyone can give teaching, which I believe was Duke's point. Bob could have given the sermon on the mount, and Joe Shmoo could have said, "I have come from the Father", Eric the Mediocre could have said, believe in me. None of them are the Son of God; none of them are the Word made flesh; none of them actually could have been telling the truth if they said, "Before Abraham, I ...[text shortened]... f Christ you need, it is not just obeying His Words, but Jesus Himself as your redeemer is required.

Oh ... the 'personal relationship' thing.
Thats the critical thing.
Not the obeying of the commandments
Lol .. I get it.

Your saviour is Bob now ?