The White Horse of Revelation 6

It would be safe to say the white Horse is one of conquering



Manny

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I was brought up to believe that the good guys got the white horses.

You've just stolen part of my childhood. 😞

I was too. Just like all the good cowboys wore white hats and bad ones wore black hats. But the Holy Bible says Satan transforms himself into an angel of light and appears as a good guy to deceive the nations.

The instructor

It is simple the White Horse = Conquest
Black Horse = Famine
Red Horse = War
Ashen Horse = Death


Manny

Originally posted by sonship

What you say has been one of the interpretations of many Christian scholars and it seemed logical to me at first thought.

I don't think that many expounders of Revelation teach that this rider represents the preaching of the Gospel. I think it is still not common to hear this.

However, the number seven in the Bible is sometimes divi t is precisely why it is the Good News in the midst of this chaos. It is the truth.

Even though Christ has overcome, we only see a partial fulfillment. I am still looking forward to the complete fulfillment at His second coming, and in the meantime we must still deal with the present realities of the world we are living in.

We can not dismiss Satan's attempt to push a counterfeit on the world that brings deception and destruction to those unaware. We must contend for the faith and endure to the end.

The Instructor

Originally posted by Suzianne
The White Horseman is Conquest.

And it has nothing to do with the white horse and rider of Rev. 19.

Now this conquest is military conquest, and like the other horsemen, it is a tribulation, not a good thing. Notably, Billy Graham held that it represented the AntiChrist, or false prophets, from the differences between Rev. 6 and Rev. 19.

I do not deny that the white horse and rider is conquest, but it represent more that that. it is a type of the Antichrist spirit that uses the deception of peace by a bow with no arrows that it is able to conquer. It is the red horseman that is the spirit of war (Jihad) that Islam uses to conquer by the sword.

The Instructor

Originally posted by e4chris
That does sound a little crazy - I'm sure Jesus is a prophet in Islam, they do acknowledge Jesus -

Do you ever think it would be good if Jesus had an army? a legal system to back him up? Thats Islam.

Crazy as it may sound to you, it is a fact that that Jesus in Islam is a prophet lower than the prophet Mohammad. They do not accept all His prophecies or that He was resurrected from the grave. They also do not accept Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, because Islam declares God has no Son.

The instructor

Originally posted by sonship
I question why antichrist would be depicted on a white horse.
And why would a false messiah be seen riding a white horse?

White, signifies clean, pure, just, and approvable. The white horse is a symbol of the preaching of the gospel, which is clean, pure, just, and approvable in the eyes of both man and God.

Footnote on chapter 6 kinds of opposition and attack. [/quote]
Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.

Remember it is the Lamb (Christ) that is opening the seals, so it is not likely that Christ is depicted here. And Christ is usually depicted as having a sharp or two-edged sword, as in Revelation 19, and not with a bow. Also there is no proof that any arrows have been fired and his conquest does not seem complete for he is still going out to conquer with this bow with no arrows, which to me symbolizes peaceful conquest by intrigue as in the book of Daniel. Also he does not have the crown of royalty at first, but is given it later.

Many believe the AntiChrist will first come in peacefully and the following prophecy in Daniel is meant as a dual fulfillment. Peace has usualy been representd by a white flag.

And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant. And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people. He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time....

“Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain.

(Daniei 11:21:24, 36-39 NKJV)

Many also believe the following is referring to the same ruler and is to be a dual fulfillment by the AntiChrist of the endtimes.

And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

(Daniel 8:9-12 NKJV)

The instructor

Remember it is the Lamb (Christ) that is opening the seals, so it is not likely that Christ is depicted here. And Christ is usually depicted as having a sharp or two-edged sword, as in Revelation 19, and not with a bow. Also there is no proof that any arrows have been fired and his conquest does not seem complete for he is still going out to conquer with this bow with no arrows, which to me symbolizes peaceful conquest by intrigue as in the book of Daniel. Also he does not have the crown of royalty at first, but is given it later.

Many believe the AntiChrist will first come in peacefully and the following prophecy in Daniel is meant as a dual fulfillment. Peace has usualy been representd by a white flag.

I haven't had time to digest your post. But the horse and rider, I think, do NOT represent Christ directly. I said horse and rider represent THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL.

Now the rider on the white horse in Revelation 19 - for certain THAT is Jesus Christ directly.

Other comments maybe I can examine latter.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote]Remember it is the Lamb (Christ) that is opening the seals, so it is not likely that Christ is depicted here. And Christ is usually depicted as having a sharp or two-edged sword, as in Revelation 19, and not with a bow. Also there is no proof that any arrows have been fired and his conquest does not seem complete for he is still going out to conquer w 9 - for certain THAT is Jesus Christ directly.

Other comments maybe I can examine latter.

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you had said that the white horse and rider represented Christ preaching the gospel. So to you it represents the spirit of preaching the gospel. So are you also saying that the bow represents the gospel? I don't quite understand this idea, can you explain? Don't you see all these horses and riders as a means of judgment over the earth? And isn't the gospel already preached to the world before the endtime comes? Do you think this is the angel with the everlasting gospel in Revelation 14?

The Instructor

Remember it is the Lamb (Christ) that is opening the seals, so it is not likely that Christ is depicted here.

Yes Christ is opening the seals. However, the seven seals are actually the entire contents of the rest of the book of Revelation. So for this reason I do not disqualify the possibility of Christ being symbolized in the contents of one of the seals. He IS latter.

Christ is seen as "Another Angel" in chapter 8 (the seventh seal).
Christ I believe is seen again in chapter 10 (also of the seventh seal).
Christ is seen in chapter 14 as the Lamb and the Son of Man (that is part of the seventh seal).
Christ I think is seen symbolized again in chapters 18,19 part of the seventh seal.

So I don't think the opening of the seven seals makes it unlikely that the enclosed revelation would exclude Christ Himself.

Having said that, I repeat. The first rider and horse I do not see as Jesus directly but the PREACHING of the Gospel of Jesus.

And Christ is usually depicted as having a sharp or two-edged sword, as in Revelation 19, and not with a bow.

The sword is an offensive weapon. But the preaching of the gospel has an offensive weapon as well, the finished work of Jesus. For this reason the ARROW shot there kind of corresponds to the SWORD in the mouth in chapter 19.

The opening of the seven seals is done by the Lamb who has been "freshly slain" in chapter 5. For this reason we believe that the scene of chapter 5 depicts events in Heaven following the ascension of Christ. He has just been slain on the cross and is standing in resurrection and ascends to Heaven.

From there He opens the scroll which covers not events only of the last three and a half years of the church age, but the entire church age following the ascension of Christ.

When Christ ascended, He sent the Holy Spirit down to empower the saints to preach the Gospel. So reviewing church history or world history from the ascending of Jesus, it is quite fitting that the first thing we see is the proclamation and spread of the Gospel of Christ as it runs and conquers throughout the world.

So, I stick with the first horse speaking of the preaching of the Gospel immediately following the ascension of the crucified and resurrected Lamb of God.

Now war, famine, disease etc. have been throughout world history and from the ascending of Jesus. So I don't think ONLY the last days are being depicted in these horses and riders. Rather a glimpse of history commencing from the moment Christ the Redeemer ascending to be Lord of all in the third heavens.

Also there is no proof that any arrows have been fired and his conquest does not seem complete for he is still going out to conquer with this bow with no arrows, which to me symbolizes peaceful conquest by intrigue as in the book of Daniel. Also he does not have the crown of royalty at first, but is given it later.

No, probably I cannot prove an arrow has been shot.
And yes Satan both uses peace and being an angel of light to deceive.

I take those points. However, pin pointing that this rider is specifically the antichrist from one religion or another is rather arbitrary. Many have come as false Christs from Islam, Bahai, Unification Church, and other groups down through the centries.

Picking ONE and insisting that this is the likely interpretation could simply be someone enfluenced by contemporary suspicions.

It is too easy to say the Antichrist is whoever we are suspicious of at the moment.

Now he is the Pope.
Now he is Muhammed.
Now he is Mussolini.
Now he is John F. Kennedy.
Now the Antichrist just HAS to be Gorbechev (even has mark on his head)
Now he is Obama.
Now he is some Islamic holy man.
(personally I was considering whether Rush Limbaugh might be him)

It is easy for people from different cultures to want to label as the final EVIL whatever they find most threatening at that time. I think some modern expositors are falling into the same trap in this era of Islamic terrorism.

This is not saying we should not be worried about Islamic terrorism.

But many in the middle east as well identify the USA as "The Big Satan."

So as tempting as it may be to label your worst enemy politically, socially, nationally as the great final Antichrist, I think a more sober interpretation needs to be considered.

So when people take their favorite villain and assign him with the label of Antichrist you have to take that with a (biblical) grain of salt.

Many believe the AntiChrist will first come in peacefully and the following prophecy in Daniel is meant as a dual fulfillment. Peace has usualy been representd by a white flag.

I think we can see that this is true. That is that there will be an element in him of a great solver of world problems. I agree if that is what you mean.

You can consider that rider an Islamic antichrist if you wish.
But I think the seven seals speak of history from the ascending of Jesus as chapters four and five strongly imply. I don't think the seven seals contains just the revelation about the very end of the church age.

Originally posted by sonship

Remember it is the Lamb (Christ) that is opening the seals, so it is not likely that Christ is depicted here.

Yes Christ is opening the seals. However, the seven seals are actually the entire contents of the rest of the book of Revelation. So for this reason I do not disqualify the possibility of Christ being symbolized in the contents o hink the seven seals contains just the revelation about the very end of the church age.

To me the idea of the spirit of the Madhi of Islam as our Antichrist riding out to decieve and conquers in the name of the god of Islam as a judgment on of the world seems very reasonable. However, I do not deny there have been many other interpretations and mine could also prove wrong in time. I certainly do not claim infallibility on my interpretation and I also received some of my ideas for the spirits of the 4 horsemen from others. I have just concentrated all my interpretations into the demon spirits that seems very much demonstrated through Islam today.

I do not deny the false Christs or antichrists of other religions, but I believe that John also referred to one specific Antichrist, called the man of sin, that is to come in the endtimes, as the prophet Daniel also foretold in his cryptic way. And the Ideal of America being "The Great Satan" comes from Islam, the main rival of Christianity and Judism.

I don't think it is prudent to dismiss my interpretation of who the Antichrist is because you think Rush Limbaugh might be him. And I believe we will more likely be falling into a trap, if we do not recognize the significance of Islamic terriorism, the spread of Islam, and the coming of the Mahdi.

Do you also disagree with the interpretations I have accepted for the other 3 spirit horsemen, the beast out of the sea, and the mark of the beast?

The Instructor

don't think it is prudent to dismiss my interpretation of who the Antichrist is because you think Rush Limbaugh might be him. And I believe we will more likely be falling into a trap, if we do not recognize the significance of Islamic terriorism, the spread of Islam, and the coming of the Mahdi.

I was overly dismissive of your opinion there. Sorry. I was being a little tongue in cheek above. I really do not think Mr. Limbaugh is the antichrist.

The other horsemen there are given some more explanation. They are less of an enigma perhaps.

But I would come back to chapter five briefly. About the Lamb, the Redeeming Christ who opens the seals.

"And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living ceatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as having just been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (v.6)

I would draw your attention to "the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth".

This is simply the Holy Spirit which has been sent forth into the earth since the ascension of Christ. The seven Spirits of God are just the Holy Spirit. And Christ poured out the Holy Spirit for the accomplishing of the Gospel and the building up of His building.

When we go back and examine how the seven eyes of God's Son were spoken of before in the book of Zechariah, we see that they there also stood for the Spirit of God going forth and running to and fro in all the earth, seeking opportunity to manifest God's power and will -

First we see the vision of the stone with seven eyes -

"For here is the stone that I have set before Joshua - upon one stone are seven eyes. I will engrave its engraving, declares Jehovah of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day." (Zech 3:9)

Christ is the true Zerubabel, the greater Zeubabbel, the real and ultimate Zerubabbel. Christ is that Redeemer who is the corner stone of God's habitation and went to the cross to remove the iniquity of the sinners in one day. Christ is seen in Zechariah as the stone with seven eyes engraved by Jehovah God for the removal of sins and the building of God's house.

Immediately the stone with seven eyes pointed to Zerubbabel. But as Christ is the greater Jonah, the greater David, the greater Solomon, etc. etc. Christ is also the greater Zerubbabel as the recoverer and builder of God's damaged temple.

Now the seven eyes on this rock are seen also running through the earth in verse 9 -

"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you.

For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven [eyes] rejoice when they see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel; they are the eyes of Jehovah running to and fro on the whole earth." (v.10)

Here we see for the first time the seven eyes of God running to and fro through the whole earth. The same kind of theme appears in Revelation where we have the Lamb with seven eyes which are "the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth".

Revelation constantly hails back to symbols used in past books. We have often to go back and see how that symbol was used in the past to appreciate how it is AGAIN being used in this final book of Revelation.

Grasp the picture now. The ROCK with seven eyes has to do with the rebuilding of God's damaged temple. It is involved also with the heroic Zerubbabel who will be instrumental in accomplishing the rebuilding of the house of God. God send forth His Spirit into the earth to stir up His saints to come and build the house of God there in Zechariah.

This is a glory to Jehovah God who said previously that His eyes are constantly looking in the earth for those through whom He may manifest His glory.

Second Chronicles 16:9 - For the eyes of Jehovah run to and fro throughout all the earth to strengthen those whose heart is perfect towards Him."

We tie this passage with the passage about the seven eyes of Jehovah running to and fro through the whole earth for the rebuilding of God's damaged temple.

Now we come up to Revelation and we see again the seven eyes of God have become the seven eyes of the Redeemer Christ - the Lamb of God. This speaks of God incarnating in a man Jesus the Human Lamb sacrificed for us. He is the Lamb and is also the cornerstone of God's dwelling place in eternity future.

He is the Rock engraved by God for the removal of iniquity in one day.
And He is the Lamb with the seven horns and the seven eyes - "which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth" (Rev. 5:6)

Having briefly explained this, I try one more time to suggest that the preaching of the Gospel is the first horse. That is because the Lamb, the Redeemer Christ, sends forth the Holy Spirit for Gospel preaching and to run to and fro in the earth to strengthen men for the will of God.

Of course the FIRST item of the will of God is that men believe the Gospel and be saved. For this reason I think it is a good association with the eyes of God, the seven eyes of the Lamb, being sent into the earth AND the conquering Gospel preached by the power of the Holy Spirit riding through the earth.

"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)

By the power of the Holy Spirit the Gospel is spread to the uttermost parts of the earth. It goes out to conquer.

" ... to you they ministered these things, which have now been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven ..." ( 1 Pet. 1:12)

The FIRST rider out of the seals could be the preaching of the Gospel by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of Jehovah is the eyes of the Redeemer - the Lamb of God who is God incarnate. And His gospel goes forth with the Holy Spirit into the uttermost parts of the earth to conquer for the building up of God's New Jerusalem the eternal living tabernacle.

I pursue along this line. I am sorry if I dismissed another view over strongly then I really should have. I apologize for that. Maybe I was too much there.

But this is the line I explore. And I think the first horse out of the stall so to speak is a positive symbol. Latter there are plenty of negative things associated with Antichrist to expose what he is all about.

I pursue in Revelation 6:1,2 that the conqueror there given the crown upon a white horse is probably indicating the glorious Gospel accompanying the sevenfold intensified Spirit of God as the seven Spirits sent forth into all the earth.

Originally posted by sonship

don't think it is prudent to dismiss my interpretation of who the Antichrist is because you think Rush Limbaugh might be him. And I believe we will more likely be falling into a trap, if we do not recognize the significance of Islamic terriorism, the spread of Islam, and the coming of the Mahdi.

I was overly dismissive of your opinion ied Spirit of God as the seven Spirits sent forth into all the earth.

I am sure, having been a student of the Holy Bible for sometime now, that you must be familiar with the annotated reference Bibles by Dr. C.I. Scofield. I have one and will make reference to his notes as I go back to the very beginning before the lamb opened the book or the first of the seven seals.

I quote,

Beginning with 4:1 the viewpoint of John is from heaven. Since the word "church" does not appear again in Revelation until 22:16, the catching up of John from earth to heaven has been taken to be a symbolic representation of the translation of the Church as occurring before the events of the tribulation described in chapters 6-19.

Rev. 4:4] These elders represent the Church. The very word "elder" has church significance (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5). Crowns throughout the N.T. are exclusively presented as rewards for the faithful in the Church. These elders sit on thrones which are associated with the central judgment throne of God (vv. 2-4: cp. 1 Cor. 6:2-3; 2 Tim. 2:12).

The appearance of these elders, already glorified, crowned, and entroned before the opening of the sealed book of judgments (ch. 5) and before the endtime judgments are loosed upon the world (chs. 6-18), reaffirms that the Church is not to be subject to the judicial wrath and judgment of that time (cp. John 5:24; Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:1-11; Rev. 3:10).

I do not know if you agree or disagree with Dr. Scofield's view on this or not. But perhaps, as I think you were trying to point out to me, we should both consider this portion also before we make any speculations on what may be the meaning of the Four Horsemen.

How about it? Do you have the same or a different understanding of Chapter Four? I hope this does not open a can of worms because Dr. Scofield believes in a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church and we have others that believe in a mid-tribulation or a post-tribulation rapture.

I am new to trying to work out a plausable understanding of the Book of Revelation and do not discount your attempt to help in that matter, if that is indeed your intention. However, I still have a need to think I understand why I am taking a different position from the one I originally had before my mind is changed. I am sure you are the same way, so I am not trying to bully my views on anyone. I am only presenting them because they seem to have a good possibility of being true, as I see it at the present.

In reference to Revelation 6:2 Scofield says, "The rider on the white horse is not Christ. Those that identify this rider with Him consider the passage a prophecy of the conquest of the gospel. But no crown was given to the Lord as the proclamation of the Gospel began, and the terrible world events which accompany the other three riders (vv. 3-8) do not imply an earlier conquest by Christ."

I am in agreement with Dr. Scofield on this last point in that I see no conquering by the Gospel going on, if we still have the Muslims following Satan in an attempt to wipe Israel off the map.

The Instructor

I am sure, having been a student of the Holy Bible for sometime now, that you must be familiar with the annotated reference Bibles by Dr. C.I. Scofield. I have one and will make reference to his notes as I go back to the very beginning before the lamb opened the book or the first of the seven seals.

I think Dr. Scofield incorporated the notes of John Nelson Darby, the renown Brethren teacher, into the Scofield Bible.

I deeply respect both Darby and Scofield. There are some observations which I think have been improved upon since the days of Darby. My opinion is that the Holy Spirit has made some matters more clear to the Lord's people.

But I respect Scofield for creating that Bible with all of Darby's notes. And the first spiritually nourishing books I was given were by C.I. Scofield.

Having offered thanks for these good brothers, I will in time outline some areas where I think we can have some improvement over what Darby and Scofield understood in some areas. It will take time. My focus will be Revelation.

I quote,

Beginning with 4:1 the viewpoint of John is from heaven. Since the word "church" does not appear again in Revelation until 22:16, the catching up of John from earth to heaven has been taken to be a symbolic representation of the translation of the Church as occurring before the events of the tribulation described in chapters 6-19.

Two great Brethren teachers, John Nelson Darby and Benjamin Newton, disputed each other concerning the timing of rapture. Darby gathered evidence for pre-tribulation rapture of the whole church. The above concept he used to aid in the establishing of a pre-tribulation rapture of the whole church.

Benjamin Newton on the other hand gathered all the evidence for a post tribulation rapture of the entire church. I think this was the first great schism and debate among the Brethren - whether to follow Darby or whether to follow Newton.

In another post I may demonstrate that each was only partially right. And that is why they were so insistent. There was legitimate reasons in the Bible for either view.

However after the debates and split among the Brethren on rapture (and many other latter disagreements as well) some careful Bible teachers looked more carefully into the matter. I believe that they reconciled the difficulties.

And I follow their example of selective rapture. It is the best logical way to understand the paradoxes in the Bible concerning the matter, I am convinced. Some of the teachers I have to thank for this are Robert Govette, D.M. Panton, Watchman Nee, and Witness Lee. These are all Bible expositors who were enfluenced by Brethren teaching yet I think improved where some difficulties still remained in Brethren theology.

Details I will explain a latter.

Rev. 4:4] These elders represent the Church. The very word "elder" has church significance (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5). Crowns throughout the N.T. are exclusively presented as rewards for the faithful in the Church. These elders sit on thrones which are associated with the central judgment throne of God (vv. 2-4: cp. 1 Cor. 6:2-3; 2 Tim. 2:1 ...

The appearance of these elders, already glorified, crowned, and entroned before the opening of the sealed book of judgments (ch. 5) and before the endtime judgments are loosed upon the world (chs. 6-18), reaffirms that the Church is not to be subject to the judicial wrath and judgment of that time (cp. John 5:24; Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:1-11; Rev. 3:10).

I do not know if you agree or disagree with Dr. Scofield's view on this or not. But perhaps, as I think you were trying to point out to me, we should both consider this portion also before we make any speculations on what may be the meaning of the Four Horsemen.

How about it? Do you have the same or a different understanding of Chapter Four? I hope this does not open a can of worms because Dr. Scofield believes in a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church and we have others that believe in a mid-tribulation or a post-tribulation rapture.

The Brethren divided their assemblies over this matter. That is opening a can of worms. I do not think the church should be divided into a schism because of different views of the rapture.

So, I can state what I believe. But I do not cast other believers out of the local church for believing differently. Here is where the Brethren made the mistake.

It is not so serious a matter that we should have different KINDS of churches based upon schools of opinion about it.

The next post I hope to be more specific how I would recommend some of this to be understood.

I am new to trying to work out a plausable understanding of the Book of Revelation and do not discount your attempt to help in that matter, if that is indeed your intention. However, I still have a need to think I understand why I am taking a different position from the one I originally had before my mind is changed. I am sure you are the same way, so I am not trying to bully my views on anyone. I am only presenting them because they seem to have a good possibility of being true, as I see it at the present. [/uote]

Understood. We can have some good fellowship.

[quote]
In reference to Revelation 6:2 Scofield says, "The rider on the white horse is not Christ. Those that identify this rider with Him consider the passage a prophecy of the conquest of the gospel. But no crown was given to the Lord as the proclamation of the Gospel began, and the terrible world events which accompany the other three riders (vv. 3-8) do not imply an earlier conquest by Christ."

I am in agreement with Dr. Scofield on this last point in that I see no conquering by the Gospel going on, if we still have the Muslims following Satan in an attempt to wipe Israel off the map.

Give me a little time. I want to see what should take priority here to offer response.

Beginning with 4:1 the viewpoint of John is from heaven. Since the word "church" does not appear again in Revelation until 22:16, the catching up of John from earth to heaven has been taken to be a symbolic representation of the translation of the Church as occurring before the events of the tribulation described in chapters 6-19.

If we can set aside Rapture timing for a moment, I would like to expound on the 24 elders of the book of Revelation.

Chapter four of Revelation really concerns God as the Creator of the whole universe. I believe the elders depicted around the throne of the Creator are not elders of the Christian church nor elders of Israel. They are the elders of the universe. They are the oldest, most elder created beings of God's creation.

Witness Lee's note, I find persuasive:

The elders here are not the elders of the church but the elders of the angels, because here, before the Lord's second coming, they are siting on thrones already (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4). Among God's creation the angels are the most ancient ones. Their elders are the elders of the whole creation of God.

This is quite logical. Angels are the oldest created beings. So the elders among the angels would be the elders of the whole creation of God. Make sense ?

That they sit on thrones with golden crowns on their heads indicates that they must be the ones who rule the universe until the millennial kingdom, when the authority to rule the earth will be given to the overcoming saints (Heb. 2:5-9; Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4).

These are good angels as carrying out administration for God's government as opposed to rebellious angels of Satan who have great power yet are opposed to God and man.

In principle the Daystar (Lucifier [latin] ) was one of these very ancient angelic beings. I don't mean I know he was elder # 1 or something. I simply mean the anointed cherub who became Satan probably was of this class of most ancient angels of God.

That they are clothed in white garments and have a harp and golden bowls full of incense (5:8) indicates that now they are also priests before God; in the millennial kingdom, however, the reigning overcomers will be the priests of God and of Christ (20:6). The elders' golden crowns indicate that they are also ruling ones. Therefore, they are priests serving God and kings reigning over His creation.

The white garments here indicate that these angelic elders are sinless and, unlike the redeemed saints, have no need to be washed in the blood of the Lamb ((7:14)

Some Bible students see these as elders of the Christian church. But if you think about it, then they SHOULD include John himself who sees them. For John was one of the original 12 disciples of the Christian church. Surely John qualifies to be an elder of the whole church of Christ. The fact that John SEES the elders suggests he is not among them. And one of them even has to explain a matter to him.

"And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where did they come from?

And I said to him, My lord, you know. And he said to me, These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (7:13,14)

It may be true that John is raptured in Revelation 4. But the ancient elders are already there when John arrives. And if they have crowns and are church elders, then where is John's crown as one of the original twelve disciples ?

The Lamb Christ is standing while the elders are sitting. It doesn't seem right that any church elders should be sitting with crowns on thrones while their Lord and Savior is standing (chapter 5).

I'd encourage readers to consider the 24 elders as representative of the eldest of angelic beings - elders of the universe. As the chapter concludes we see it is a praise of God as the Creator of all things.

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were and were created." (4:11)

Pray about this. See if the Lord gives you peace about receiving it.