Originally posted by kd2aczWe should have thought more about it. That is why I am bringing it to this Forum before we go into the tribulation period. Perhaps someone will wake up and turn to Christ for salvation before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
Well I can say this... Islam was around back then as it is today. As I recall the book talked about Christians and how we should be as it relates to end time scenarios. What is being discussed on the end time stuff in this forum is not new, and has been debated as heartily since Israel became a nation... some 65 years ago, food for thought.
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHinds... Deleted
We should have thought more about it. That is why I am bringing it to this Forum before we go into the tribulation period. Perhaps someone will wake up and turn to Christ for salvation before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
The Instructor
Originally posted by e4chrisIn what way am I being flippant? I haven't used laughing, smirking, or google-eyed smiley faces. Your donkey race seems to be treating it more flippant that anything I have done.
at least its funny, your treating a serious bit of the bible with too much flippancy to my mind
"You can't be serious." - John McEnroe
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHindsWorld MEDIA coverup of Islamization: Wake-UP
In what way am I being flippant? I haven't used laughing, smirking, or google-eyed smiley faces. Your donkey race seems to be treating it more flippant that anything I have done.
"You can't be serious." - John McEnroe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTY
The Instructor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=i8yrd-UUyYU
Islam will Destroy all Civilization
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=z5-sgbHelPg
The Instructor
I posted the following links on the thread "Islam's Ancient hatred of the Jews." However, I meant to post them on this thread because of the idea that the White Horse speaks more of deception and a spiritual warfare that we need to be prepared for. These are some of the Islamic antichrist's deceptions now going on even before the Mahdi has entered the scene.
Muslim brotherhood in American schools?
Ephesians 6:11-17 - End Times
ISLAMIC STATES OF AMERICA
&feature=endscreen&NR=1
The Instructor
Here is my summary again of the Four Horses of Revelation.
I believe the revealing of the White Horse and Rider is first, because it is the prominent feature that begins the endtimes events leading right in to the tribulations of those days. This Rider on the White Horse is the spirit of the Antichrist or the Mahdi, savior of Islam, who rides in peacefully with a bow, signifying a position of strength, but with no arrows, so that he can deceive Israel into thinking he has peaceful intentions. So he is given a crown and declared King for his ability to negotiate peaceful agreements and goes about conguering and conquering by the deception of peace.
The peace from the White Horseman is short lived, because the Jihad spirit of the Red Horse is unleased by which they kill each other because of their sharia law and inability to remain peaceful with each other and because of their hatred of Israel and Christians. So they are gathered to go to war against Israel causing great shedding of blood by war, which is symbolized by the great sword.
But before these two Horsemen can finish their ride, a Black Horse and Rider is unleashed that is another demonic spirit of Islam with the intentions of toppling the economic systems of the Capitalist Christians and Jews by attacking their commerce. All this leads to economic hardship for those not having the ability to buy and sell throught the mark of the beast empire of Islam. However, they are not allowed to harm the servants of God, symbolized by the oil and wine.
Then finally, the Pale Green Horse and rider represents the full release of the Islamic demon spirits to wreak havoc in the Great tribulation period with all four horsemen riding with the intent to conquer Israel and the whole world with every means possible. Satan's wrath is now fully unleashed at this time through the Islamic beast empire.
Does anybody have anything to add before I move on in my instructing?
The Instructor
I do not believe the Antichrist will be associated with ANY monotheistic religion. How could he possibly be a champion of Islam?
1.) Paul says that he exalts himself above all that is called God or object of worship.
" ... the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth, saying that he is God." (2 Thess. 2:4)
Whatever else the faults of Islam they are not about to exalt a man to be God. This is precisely why they do not recognize Christ as anything more than a prophet. That God could be a man or have a Son is intrinsically anathema to Moslems.
Antichrist exalts his human self above God and calls himself God. I think it is highly unlikely that such a figure could come out of Islam, or Judaism or Christianity, or any monotheistic faith.
2.) The worship of Antichrist maybe will involve people knowingly giving worship to Satan. That is a kind of Satanism with a godlike human being and a false prophet to form a kind of evil trinity.
I assume this may be the case because of the following passage:
"And they worshipped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? And who can make war with him." (Rev. 13:4)
The "dragon" in this passage is Satan the Devil (Rev. 12:9).
When it says "they worshipped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast" this indicates that men will worship Satan the Devil who has invested in the beast, Antichrist, the great Satanic authority that he will possess.
Whatever the errors of Islam it at least has a concept that God is verses the Devil. But the passage strongly implies that followers of Antichrist worship both Satan the Devil and Antichrist the man.
Is it possible that Islam could somehow morph into such a religion ? Maybe it is possible. I doubt that Allah will be discarded for Satan worship coupled with worship of a man who claims that he is God.
Perhaps the passage means that men will unknowingly, naively, indirectly be worshipping Satan as they worship Antichrist the man. Since these things have not happened yet I don't feel to be overly dogmatic about it.
But at present, my opinion is that "they worshipped the dragon [Satan] because he gave his authority to the beast [Antichrist] " may represent rebellion to the uttermost - that men exalt Satan.
The total refusal of the punished subjects of Antichrist in chapter 15 would suggest the depths of their willful rebellion:
"And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory." (15:9)
This does not sound like crazy Moslems.
It sounds more like obsessed Satanists.
"And [they] blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (15:11)
Again, this sounds less to me like monotheistic Allah worshippers and more like willful Satan's rebels following him willfully.
Lastly, it is interesting that RJHinds equates Revelation 6:6 as symbolic of harm not coming to Christians. If I understand him right, this phrase -
"A choenix of wheat for a denarius and there choenixes of barely for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine." he sees as some exemption from persecution of Christians by some Islamic antichrist.
I would like to think on it a bit. However, my initial response would be a few points:
1.) Both barely and wheat could well serve as symbolic of God's saints just as much as oil and wine could. In fact wheat is indicated as symbolic of the saints of God in the rapture of the Harvest indicated in Revelation 14:14-16.
That it is so obvious that wine and oil represents God's saints rather than barley or wheat is not the case to me at all.
2.) The saints who are left to pass through the great tribulation should not expect that they are totally exempt from suffering under Antichrist. The voice may have said "and touch not the oil and wine" but Christians left on the earth during the great tribulation may unfortunately expect to be "touched" by the persecution of Antichrist.
"And permission was given to him [the beast] to make war with the saints and to overcome them ..." (13:7)
That Antichrist is given permission to overcome the saints for at least 42 months is better not to understood that they saints will not be touched.
Daniel also says that the antichrist will "wear out" the saints of God.
"And he will speak things against the Most High and wear out the saints of the Most High; ..." (Daniel 7:25)
I think it is better not to understand this as the saints not being touched. Rather they who are left upon the earth undergo the danger of being touched, opposed, and even worn out by this final Antichrist.
Of course such persecution will not defeat the kingdom of God. And it is limited to 42 months or three and one half years -
"And he will speak things against the Most High and wear out the saints of the Most High; and his intention will be to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time." - Ie. a year plus two years plus half a year.
Now, could "saints" in Daniel mean only Jews ?
Perhaps so. Yet Revelation does say that Antichrist persecutes those "who have the testimony of Jesus" too (12:17) and those who have "the faith of Jesus" (14:12) .
The heated persecution is what helps the saints to mature and be ready for the Harvest rapture towards the end of the great tribulation (14:14-16).
Originally posted by sonshipI do not believe I made any claim that the Antichrist would be a champion of Islam. I see him coming through the religion of Islam and using it for his purposes. And of course, Satan is behind it all. However, there is no Satanic religion that compares in power and religious authority as does the Satanic religion of Islam. I have already declared my belief that Allah is Satan and he has decieved many into thinking otherwise.
I do not believe the Antichrist will be associated with ANY monotheistic religion. How could he possibly be a champion of Islam?
1.) Paul says that he exalts himself above all that is called God or object of worship.
[b]" ... the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an owards the end of the great tribulation [b](14:14-16).[/b]
How can a religion get more antichristian than to deny that God had a Son and that He did not die on the cross for our sins?
I am not going to squabble over the exact interpretations of the other minor details within the prophecy. You may be able to see a better meaning that makes more sense to you. That is entirely up to you.
The point is that he exalts "himself" above all that is called God, not that the Muslims do it. They are not going to matter to him, once he gets control. They are going to have to do what he wants, or else.
The Instructor
Originally posted by RJHinds
I do not believe I made any claim that the Antichrist would be a champion of Islam. I see him coming through the religion of Islam and using it for his purposes. And of course, Satan is behind it all. However, there is no Satanic religion that compares in power and religious authority as does the Satanic religion of Islam. I have already declared my beli once he gets control. They are going to have to do what he wants, or else.
The Instructor
I do not believe I made any claim that the Antichrist would be a champion of Islam. I see him coming through the religion of Islam and using it for his purposes.
I guess I understood "coming through Islam and using it" to mean he captures the adoration of Moslems. In other words he is a champion of that religion.
And of course, Satan is behind it all. However, there is no Satanic religion that compares in power and religious authority as does the Satanic religion of Islam.
In terms of recognizing a Creator God they are closer to accepting the eternal gospel preached by the angel in the air during the great tribulation.
The eternal gospel preached supernaturally from the air is a gospel to fear merely God the Creator. It does not mention incarnation of Christ or the redemption of the cross. Its contents are concerning God as Creator:
"And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters." (Rev. 14:6,7)
1.) This eternal gospel is preached not by man on the earth but supernaturally by an angel in heaven during the darkest time of the great tribulation.
2.) It is a announcement to go to every nation, every tribe, every tongue and every people during the darkest part of the reign of the Antichrist.
3.) It is a gospel to fear God the Creator of the universe because such a Creator is about to judge the world.
4.) The announcement is accompanied by calamities in the natural world that could only be the control of God the Creator.
5.) Though Islam today denies the incarnation and are antichrist in that sense, they do at least believe in a Creator God. In fact the Kalaam cosmological argument frequently used by Christian apologists originated from Islamic theology.
Now I am not suggesting today Moslems should not repent and believe in Christ. But this time of the last 42 months of this age will be particular time of transition. And men who believe this "eternal gospel" will be transferred into the millennial kingdom to be reigned over by Christ and His overcomers.
The Recovery Version footnote on this "eternal gospel" is helpful:
The eternal gospel, which will be preached during the time of the great tribulation (Matt. 24:21), differs from the gospel of grace (Acts 20:24) preached in the church age. The basic contents of the gospel of grace are repentance unto God and faith in the Lord Jesus (Acts 20:21) that men may be forgiven of their sins and be born again as the children of God (Luke 24:47; John 1:12); whereas the basic content of the eternal gospel is that men should fear God and worship God that they may not be deceived and follow Antichrist but may be brought back to the genuine worship of God, who made heaven and earth (v.7). Only man is privileged to preach the gospel of grace on the earth today (Acts 10:3-6). But the eternal gospel will be preached by the angel in the air at the close of this age.
"Fear God and give Him glory" is a commandment given to those who dwell on the earth. It counters the false prophet's deceit that says that men should follow Antichrist and neutralizes the death threat against those who refuse to worship antichrist during the great tribulation (13:14-15).
In this time of transition men who fear God the Creator in response to the eternal gospel announced by the angel, will be transferred into the millennial kingdom to be part of the nations over whom Christ rules with His overcomers and to which the saved remnant of Jews will be priests.
In those days it is better to realize that only a Creator God could be shaking the universe as it is being shaken. And for this reason monotheistic belief, if it survives into that period of great tribulation may be more opened to the eternal gospel. My opinion is that the Moslems who do recognize at least God the Creator would be less likely to be deceived than the followers of antichrist.
It all has not happened yet. So I could be mistaken on some point.
Today we should still preach the gospel of grace and faith towards Christ the Son of God and the Redeemer.
It could be that at that time it will be difficult even to get one's hands on a Bible or Quran or Torah for Antichrist's opposition to all religions will be fierce. This is speculation on my part too.
But the "eternal gospel" preached by an angel or angels during that time reminds me of what Paul says in Romans chapter one about the creation rendering man without excuse to not believe in a God -
(Romans 1:19-21)
The other comments in your post I may respond to latter.
Originally posted by sonshipWhether the Antichrist is a champion of Islam or not is not my point. The point is that the Antichrist comes out of the Islamic beast empire of the endtimes.I do not believe I made any claim that the Antichrist would be a champion of Islam. I see him coming through the religion of Islam and using it for his purposes.
I guess I understood "coming through Islam and using it" to mean he captures the adoration of Moslems. In other words he is a champion of that religion.
[quote]
And of cou Romans 1:19-21)
The other comments in your post I may respond to latter.[/b]
And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.
(Revelation 13:1-2 NASB)
This is a 10 Kingdom Empire with 10 Kings, which problably occupies some of the same area around the Mediterranean Sea as did the Leopard, bear, and lion Kingdoms in Daniels visions. They at least have some of the same characteristics as those Kingdoms.
The dragon also gives power to another beast with two horns without any diadems that comes up out of the land. Could this refer to Afghanistan or Iraq? Some say it is Iran, but it is unclear at this point in time. But it seems certain to be an Islamic nation in my opinion.
The eternal gospel of God is the same "good news" that the apostle Paul preached (Romans 1:1). But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! (Galations 1:8). Christ is the Creator God (Colossians 1:16).
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
The Instructor