The White Horse of Revelation 6

Rev. 4:4] These elders represent the Church. The very word "elder" has church significance (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5). Crowns throughout the N.T. are exclusively presented as rewards for the faithful in the Church. These elders sit on thrones which are associated with the central judgment throne of God (vv. 2-4: cp. 1 Cor. 6:2-3; 2 Tim. 2:1 ...

The appearance of these elders, already glorified, crowned, and entroned before the opening of the sealed book of judgments (ch. 5) and before the endtime judgments are loosed upon the world (chs. 6-18), reaffirms that the Church is not to be subject to the judicial wrath and judgment of that time (cp. John 5:24; Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:1-11; Rev. 3:10).

As you can see I do not go down the road of the elders being elders of the Church. So rapture ideas based upon in any regard don't mean much to me.

A little more on these 24 elders who I believe represent the elders of ALL CREATION - the eldest of the angels as the earliest creatures out of the creative will of God.

Chapter 4's climax - "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were and were created."

Chapter four lays a foundation of God being the Creator of all things for His will. But what exactly is His will ? That is what John hopes to learn. But in chapter 5 no one in heaven, on earth, or under the earth was able to open the Scroll which I believe pertains to what the will of God for all creation is. That is no philosopher, wise man, no prophet, no poet, no leader, no one great or small and no angel even was able to open the Scroll sealed with the seven seals.

Then One comes and is WORTHY to open the scroll of God's will - God's economy for which He created all things. The Lamb is worthy and John need not weep.

But I digress. Back to the 24 elders of all the creation of God:

Twenty-four is formed by multiplying twelve by two. Twelve indicates the completion of God's administration (Matt. 19:28). David divided both the priests and the Levites into twenty-four groups to carry out God's administrative service. Therefore, before they are replaced by the church, the twenty-four angelic elders are the ones who carry out God's administration. Twelve multiplied by two signifies strengthening by doubling, indicating that the divine administration carried out by the twenty-four elders is strong. W.L.

Now I think you allude to Scofield:

These elders sit on thrones which are associated with the central judgment throne of God (vv. 2-4: cp. 1 Cor. 6:2-3; 2 Tim. 2:1 ...

Yes, First Corinthians6:2-3 does say the human saints will judge angels. But this works okay with the 24 elders being the eldest angels of creation. It is at the time of the millennial kingdom that the saints will judge angels. For Paul says this judgment is yet to come -

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world ? ... Do you not know that we will judge angels, not to mention things of this life?"

Let's get a grip on this in context.

1.) Paul is kind of scolding them for not being able to judge difficult situations among the believers in the church life. He is puzzled that there is no one mature enough to judge some of these difficulties between Christians in dispute with one another.

2.) In this context he says "Don't you realize that this is light stuff? We are to judge angels. We are to judge the world in the future. You cannot handle this now? How will you be able to judge the world and angels some day?"

That is the flavor. Don't you think?

3.) This should mean that judging rightly is a matter of being grown up spiritually and mature. It is no automatic matter that a believer may do accurately.

4.) This also should mean that if by the time Jesus returns we are NOT matured we will NOT be able to judge the world and angels. Therefore the judging of the world and angels is a reward given to the overcomers in the church age - those who developed in spiritual life normally.

In the parable of the Lord giving reward to His servants for their service - one was given to reign over 10 cities. One was given to reign over 5 cities. And one slothful one was disciplined to reign over no cities but was cast into outer darkness temporarily for discipline. (See both Matt. 25:14-30 and Luke 19:12-27). (I'm mixing it up a little)

Reigning and judging then are a reward for being an overcoming Christian and not an automatic given just because one is a Christian.

5.) But before the second coming we see these elders on thrones with crowns. They are already reigning for a divine administration all during the church age.

I consider that Christ arriving as the Lamb having been just slain and seen standing in the midst of the elders and the throne of God to indicate that this is the scene in heaven around the time of the ascension of Christ.

Now we cannot be too literal here. I do not mean that John was raptured on the same day that Christ ascended up in a cloud. I am not that literal.

What I mean is that what John saw upon being carried up into Heaven is a symbolic representation of the events that commenced when Christ ascended into Heaven. God's heavenly time machine is at work here. So how John was there to see what had already transpired ? That is for the musing of God's transcendence over the space time continuum. I don't understand that much. John, in Revelation, seems to travel in his visions to both the past and the distant future with God's help.

So chapter four, I take, as just before Jesus arrives by ascension. And chapter five as Jesus having ascended for the great inauguration of His Lordship over all.

The Lamb is not there in chapter four yet. But the Spirit of God is as the seven torches before God's throne.

The Lamb is suddenly there in chapter five. And the seven torches which are the Spirit of God are now the EYES of the Lamb. The seven Spirits of God have picked up something. They have picked up the humanity of the man Jesus. This speaks of God being incarnated. And the fact that He is suddenly seen as having been just slain, or freshly slain and standing in resurrection, suggest His death and resurrection were recent.

He arrives there ready to open the scroll of the will of God, breaking its seven seals. The mystery of God's will in creation is revealed in the following contents of the seven seals which is effectively the rest of the book of Revelation.

Now as for the church not being mentioned. I only partially agree with this. Though the church is not mentioned after chapter 3 it surely is symbolized and depicted in a number of places after chapter 3.

I am saying that there indeed are other reasons why evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture can be seen in the New Testament. The reasons given related to John, the 24 elders, and the word church in Revelation, I think, are the weaker ones to examine last rather than first.

Latter I may go into response to the stronger reasons for arguing pre-tribulation rapture of the church. And those are reasons with some good logic and some weak logic. And a more accurate picture, I think, will emerge.

reaffirms that the Church is not to be subject to the judicial wrath and judgment of that time (cp. John 5:24; Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:1-11; Rev. 3:10).

The problem here is that we Christians too soon assume that ALL of the church must be processed in a certain way at the same time.

We assume that ALL the church is exempt from these troubles of the great tribulation or that ALL the church has to pass through.

We make an assumption that Christ would not process part of the church one way and process another part of the church another way. We assume that we all must pass through everything together at the same time.

Now, without referring to proof texts let me say this. Most of the passages about rapture have the flavor of warning, caution, need for vigilance, need for astuteness, attention, not being negligent or lazy or being caught off guard.

Most of the passages have this flavor. Now think on it logically. If rapture is spoken of in terms of warning then it is a fact of life that warning can be heeded OR ignored.

Just because the Lord gives a warning to the church as a whole does not mean ALL the church will HEED the warning. Logically, if it is a cautionary teaching, some will be cautious and some will fail to be cautious.

Why should we expect less ?
So if the Lord says "Watch and be ready" it is understandable that some in the church will watch and be ready and some will not watch and will not be ready.

This is not a matter of being saved eternally or being lost eternally. It is a matter of WHEN one is taken in rapture. And selective rapture has to be the most logical interpretation of all the facts.

Part of the church will be raptured pre-tribulation. And part of the church will miss this first rapture and have to pass through the great tribulation. This is why Newton was partially right and Darby also was partially right. Their mistake was they both assumed that the entire church has to have the same experience of rapture at the same time.

This I think can be backed up. Here I have just presented you the logic without explicit references to verses.

Don't let me get away too easy. We really want to see the truth. Right?

Originally posted by sonship

Beginning with 4:1 the viewpoint of John is from heaven. Since the word "church" does not appear again in Revelation until 22:16, the catching up of John from earth to heaven has been taken to be a symbolic representation of the translation of the Church as occurring before the events of the tribulation described in chapters 6-19.

If ...[text shortened]... )

Pray about this. See if the Lord gives you peace about receiving it.[/b]

I have no problem in receiving that. Perhaps we are closer in agreement on this than I had thought. However, there is still the matter of the interpretation of the white horse and rider. That, we still are in disagreement.

So let me ask you, if you see John in heaven viewing an endtime scerario at the beginning of the tribulation period?

thought. However, there is still the matter of the interpretation of the white horse and rider. That, we still are in disagreement.

So let me ask you, if you see John in heaven viewing an endtime scerario at the beginning of the tribulation period?

The other horses and riders are very negative. So it is understandable that we might assume that mysterious horse and rider of the first seal is also negative.

It is understandable that in conforming the first rider to the flavor of the others, we would take the positive symbols as surely indicating something negative -

ie. the white of the horse is a deceptive whiteness.
the crown is a negative crown.
the conquering should be a negative conquering.

These can be verified as possibilities. They are not outlandish assumptions. Satan comes as an angel of light. Crowns are on the heads of the seven headed beast. etc.

You know how I view it. I could be wrong. It is a matter of interpretation.

There is hardly anything to interpret about the horse of which it plainly says - " ... I heard the second living creature saying, Come. And I saw, and behold, another horse, a red one, went forth; and to him who sits on it, to him authority was given to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another; and to him a great sword was given."

That doesn't sound positive.

"And when He opened the third seal ... a black horse ...". This most certainly has something to do with famine and lack of food (v.6).

That is negative.

" ... the fourth seal ... he who sits upon it, his name is Death; and Hades followed with him."

Clearly negative.

But that first horse and rider is an enigma because not much explanation is given. That's the challenge.

Now we might look back into the Old Testament to see where something similar was given by the Holy Spirit before. Maybe that might help. The place to look would be Zechariah 1:8.

You have a red horse and rider, and behind them red, reddish-brown, and white horses.

It is a little similar to the horses and riders of the first four seals in Revelation.

Muse on it a bit. Check your Scofield and maybe shortly we can consider some parellels which might aid us in understanding the mysterious first horse and rider which we find enigmatic in Revelation 6.

John is seeing an endtime scenario for sure. But I think he is viewing history from the ascension to eternity future.

When he is viewing all this is a little difficult. He is on the Island of Patmos at the time. But his visions kind of transport him in time here and there. It is really like he's in a time machine.

It is difficult for me to saw when John is seeing the vision. In one sense it is simply on the Lord's Day on the Island of Patmos that particular day. But in another sense he is lifted up into a transcendent state and time to see into the past and into the distant future.

There is a book I read several years ago on this topic that I think is very good.

Approaching Hoofbeats, by Billy Graham

... For those interested, RJ you may find it worthwhile.

http://www.amazon.com/Approaching-Hoofbeats-Billy-Graham/dp/0380699214/ref=sr_1_44?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369323115&sr=1-44&keywords=billy+graham

Originally posted by kd2acz
There is a book I read several years ago on this topic that I think is very good.

Approaching Hoofbeats, by Billy Graham

... For those interested, RJ you may find it worthwhile.

http://www.amazon.com/Approaching-Hoofbeats-Billy-Graham/dp/0380699214/ref=sr_1_44?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369323115&sr=1-44&keywords=billy+graham

What role did he include for Islam in the endtimes. I believe if Islam does not have a major role in one's endtime scenario, then someting is wrong with it.

The Instructor

The more that I look at the following passage in the light that John sees it at the beginning of the tribulation period, the more I am convinced that this relates to the appearance of the false Christ that john spoke about in one of his letters.

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

(Revelation 6:1-2 NKJV)

How can anyone not see that this rider on a white horse with the deceptive bow of peace is none other than the Mahdi of the most antichrist religion on earth.

Why was he given a crown? Who did he go out conquering and who else did he intend to conquer? How does this horseman compare with the mission of the other three horseman?

None of this sounds like the real Christ or even the preaching of the Gospel to me. I think the following website explains what I mean about Islam being the most antichrist religion on earth:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch12_the_antichrist_spirit_of_islam.htm

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

(Revelation 6:1-2).

This white horse and rider represent ...[text shortened]... ssful that even many within Christianity believe Islam is a religion of peace.

The instructor[/b]

Oh really? Not even close buddy. This is speaking of Jesus.

Originally posted by galveston75
Oh really? Not even close buddy. This is speaking of Jesus.

No, buddy -- This is Christ:

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.



(Revelation 19:11-16 NKJV)

The instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
No, buddy -- This is Christ:

[b]Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and ...[text shortened]... en:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.



(Revelation 19:11-16 NKJV)

The instructor[/b]

No clue? You can't see this is speaking of the same being, Jesus? Oh yeah I forget you are the instructor so you know it all, right?.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am sure, having been a student of the Holy Bible for sometime now, that you must be familiar with the annotated reference Bibles by Dr. C.I. Scofield. I have one and will make reference to his notes as I go back to the very beginning before the lamb opened the book or the first of the seven seals.

I quote,

[b]Beginning with 4:1 the viewpoint of John ...[text shortened]... e the Muslims following Satan in an attempt to wipe Israel off the map.

The Instructor

Why do you not attack sonhouse for using God's name Jehovah?

Originally posted by galveston75
No clue? You can't see this is speaking of the same being, Jesus? Oh yeah I forget you are the instructor so you know it all, right?.

You are quickly failing this course for you refuse to read all the lesson materials. Nor do you do any homework.

The instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
You are quickly failing this course for you refuse to read all the lesson materials. Nor do you do any homework.

The instructor

I don't have to read it all as it's a bunch of nonsense. I know what these scriptures are speaking of very clearly and it's not a bunch of mumbo jumbo that you are making it to be.
STICK TO THE BIBLE!!!!

Originally posted by galveston75
I don't have to read it all as it's a bunch of nonsense. I know what these scriptures are speaking of very clearly and it's not a bunch of mumbo jumbo that you are making it to be.
STICK TO THE BIBLE!!!!

So if you know, then you don't need my instructing. So bug off.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
What role did he include for Islam in the endtimes. I believe if Islam does not have a major role in one's endtime scenario, then someting is wrong with it.

The Instructor

Well I can say this... Islam was around back then as it is today. As I recall the book talked about Christians and how we should be as it relates to end time scenarios. What is being discussed on the end time stuff in this forum is not new, and has been debated as heartily since Israel became a nation... some 65 years ago, food for thought.