The Wisdom of Witness Lee

Cont. to Rajk999

attempting to draw parallels between Christ and barley and other food items is childish and unnecessary. It is a practice that is condemned.

Then the entire 5th and 6th chapter of the Gospel of John is to you childish and unnecessary.

Christ is there the bread which came down from heaven, being the reality of the manna God fed the children of Israel with in the wilderness.

So also to you would be childish and unnecessary the many references to Christ being the Lamb - meaning the redeeming sacrifice in a man, in a God-man.

If this were something that was condoned by God then the Apostles would have done it.

Here we see the Apostle Paul do so in saying Christ was the spiritual Rock in the Old Testament.

" ... for they all drank of a spiritual rock which follwed them, and the rock was Christ." (1 Cor. 10:4)

The both the food and the drink were symbols of Christ.

And all ATE of the same spiritual food, And all drank the same spiritual drink ... Christ ..." (See 1 Cor. 10:3,4)

The Apostle Paul also says the ENTIRE PASSOVER was Christ in allegory. And that the new covenant Passover is Christ.

"Purge out the old leaven that you may be new lump even as you are unleavened; for our Passover, Christ, also has been sacrificed." (1 Cor. 5:7)

They did not and for good reason. It detracts from a proper understanding of God and Christ. Your doctrine based on these men who you apparently worship is false and your faith is in vain.

The apostles did draw parallels between things, places, matters as pointing to Christ. You're ignorant of these. More can be given.

@sonship said
Cont. to Rajk999

attempting to draw parallels between Christ and barley and other food items is childish and unnecessary. It is a practice that is condemned.

Then the entire 5th and 6th chapter of the Gospel of John is to you childish and unnecessary.

Christ is there the bread which came down from heaven, being the reality of the manna God f ...[text shortened]... between things, places, matters as pointing to Christ. You're ignorant of these. More can be given.

Nonsense. the allegories made by the bible writings is not a licence to promote your own. You are a damn fool

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

I'm sure this bit of wisdom from Lee will make itself known to me eventually:


"The unique Creator, God, is triune, signified by the number three. Since the creation is represented before God by four living creatures (Revelation 4:6-9), the number four signifies creatures, especially man. Hence, three plus four means that God is added to the created man, and thus His purpose is being accomplished. The church is not only the creature, but the creature with the Creator as the Triune God dispensed into her. She is the real number seven: the real three, the Triune God, added to the real four, created man. Therefore the number seven denotes completion in God’s move, first in the old creation and then in the new creation, the church."

(The Recovery Version: Footnotes of Revelation)

Treatment of numbers in the Bible is by no means the invention of Witness Lee. The following examples were taken from a singular exhaustive treatise on numbers in the Bible by one E.W. Buillinger

From Wiki

Ethelbert William Bullinger AKC (December 15, 1837 – June 6, 1913) was an Anglican clergyman, Biblical scholar, and ultradispensationalist theologian.

From Numbers in Scripture, E.W. Bullinger, Kregel

THREE

In this number we have quite a new set of phenomena. We come to the first geometrical figure, Two straight lines cannot possibly enclose any space, or form a plane figure; neither can two plane surfaces form a solid. Three lines are necessary to form a plane figure; and three dimensions of length, breadth, and height are necessary to form a solid. Hence three is a symbol of a cube - the simplest form of solid figure.

Pg. 107.

Bullinger goes on.

When we turn to Scripture, this completion becomes Divine, and marks Divine completeness or perfection.

Three is the first of four perfect numbers (See p. 23)
Three denotes divine perfection ;
Seven denotes spiritual perfection ;
Ten denotes ordinal perfection; and
Twelve denotes governental perfection.

Bullinger goes on for another approximately 16 pages backing up his theory about the usage of three in the Bible signally divine perfection.

Then he comes to FOUR in the next chapter.

we have seen that three signifies Divine perfection, with special reference to the Trinity; The Father, one in sovereignty; the Son, the second person, in incarnation and salvation, delivering from every enemy; the Holy Spirit, the third person, realizing in us and to us Divine things.

Now the number four is made up of three and one (3 + 1 = 4), and it denotes, therefore, and marks that which follows the revelation of God in the Trinity, namely, His creative work. He is known by the things that are seen. Hence the wrotten revelation commences with the words, "In - the - beginning - God CREATED," Creation is therefore the next thing - the fourth thing; It is emphatically the number of Creation ; of man in his relation to the world as created ; while six is the number of number of man in his opposition to and independence of God. It is the number is the number of things that have a beginning, of things that are made, of material things, and matter itself. It is a number of material completeness. Hence it is the world number, and especially the "city" number.

The point here is not how exactly equivalent are Bullinger's and Lee's treatment of significance of these numbers. The point is that Bullinger died in 1913 and Witness Lee, born in 1905, followed other expositors in drawing some attention to these significances of biblical numbers.

If there is wisdom in such discussions, they have been the Christian church's wisdom in ages past.

As a matter of fact Jesus Himself seems to have strongly implied that there was spiritual significance in the numbers of people fed and loaves provided in two of His mass feeding miracles in Mark.

And they reasoned with one another saying, It is because we do not have bread.

And Jesus, knowing it, said to them, Why are you reasoning because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Do you have your heart hardened? Having eyes, do you not see? and having ears, do you not hear? and do you not remember?

When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many handaskets full of broken pieces did you take up? They said to Him, Twelve.

And when I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets filled with broken pieces did you take up? And they said, Seven.

And He said to them, Do you not yet understand? (Mark 8:16-21)

Long before Bullinger or Lee were born Jesus Christ Himself implied the numbers in His two miracles had some particular spiritual significance.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

[quote] I'm sure this bit of wisdom from Lee will make itself known to me eventually:


"The unique Creator, God, is triune, signified by the number three. Since the creation is represented before God by four living creatures (Revelation 4:6-9), the number four signifies creatures, especially man. Hence, three plus four means that God is added to the c ...[text shortened]...
If there is wisdom in such discussions, they have been the Christian church's wisdom in ages past.

The church is fill of donkeys and jack as$$es who sit there an believe anything the pastor says. You are one of these donkeys.

@sonship said
Treatment of numbers in the Bible is by no means the invention of Witness Lee.

Would you agree that many pagan traditions incorporate numerology? So, the Bible incorporated numerology, as did pagan traditions that predated it?

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

[quote] I'm sure this bit of wisdom from Lee will make itself known to me eventually:


"The unique Creator, God, is triune, signified by the number three. Since the creation is represented before God by four living creatures (Revelation 4:6-9), the number four signifies creatures, especially man. Hence, three plus four means that God is added to the c ...[text shortened]...
If there is wisdom in such discussions, they have been the Christian church's wisdom in ages past.

Yes, yes, you might be on to something. A similar treatment of the importance of the numbers 3 and 7 can be found in Egyptian mythology.

Examples of 3:
The beer used to trick Sekhmet soaked three hands into the ground.
The second god, Re, named three times to define the sun: dawn, noon, and evening.
Thoth is described as the “thrice-great god of wisdom”.
A doomed prince was doomed to three fates: to die by a crocodile, a serpent, or a dog.

Examples of 7:
Seven thousand barrels of red beer were used to trick Sekhmet out of killing.
In her search for her husband’s pieces, the goddess Isis was guarded by seven scorpions.
A legendary famine lasted seven years
The Pool symbol, representing water, contains seven zigzag lines.


Yes, I see now the wisdom in numerological scrutiny.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Egyptian_mythology

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Yes, yes, you might be on to something. A similar treatment of the importance of the numbers 3 and 7 can be found in Egyptian mythology.

The point is not very significant.
Where's your stronger point?

Examples of 3:
The beer used to trick Sekhmet soaked three hands into the ground.
The second god, Re, named three times to define the sun: dawn, noon, and evening.
Thoth is described as the “thrice-great god of wisdom”.
A doomed prince was doomed to three fates: to die by a crocodile, a serpent, or a dog.

The the Egyptians practiced their own magic arts (which probably included numerology) and were able even to duplicate the miracle of a stick becomming a serpent, shows their imitation was deep. We really don't know the extent of Satan's power all the time.

To an extent what God's servant did, Pharoah called his wisemen and magicians to show Moses, "Hey, we can do the same thing."

You're impressed.
Not all of us are.

Examples of 7:
Seven thousand barrels of red beer were used to trick Sekhmet out of killing.
In her search for her husband’s pieces, the goddess Isis was guarded by seven scorpions.
A legendary famine lasted seven years
The Pool symbol, representing water, contains seven zigzag lines.

As if perhaps I didn't know there is plenty of deep pagan philosophy around in world history ?

People with contemplative minds have thought numbers seem to carry some philosophical meanings to them.

You can decide if you want to follow the Egyptians.
Christians don't worship numbers or insist wisdom HAS to be seen in them.

Our focus is on Christ the Savior, the Son of God.
From the Egyptian pantheon who would you prefer to put your trust in ?

Anyway, what is pointed out in the nature of numbers in Scripture can also be pretty much taught plainly in straight forward regular speech.

You don't HAVE to understand about 1, 2, 3,4,5,6,7,8,10,12,40,41,42,etc. in order to receive much blessing from God's presence.

Though Bullinger and Lee and others may have elaborated on numbers, nothing much there is SO crucial to know that one could not find God's salvation without the knowledge of number symbolism.

Yes, I see now the wisdom in numerological scrutiny.

I can't see anything in your observation which causes me not to contemplate some things said by Christian teachers about numbers in the Bible. I don't consider such expositions to be so crucial as make or break wisdom about God's salvation.

They are not magic formulas. And no one I know suggests that in themselves they have any power.

And I consider it purposeful that God showed us in Exodus 7:8-14 that the Egyptians played up to a point an imitation game showing that Yahweh wasn't anything special.

Basically, you're playing a similar game.

And Jehovah spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying,

When Pharoah speaks to you, saying Perform a wonder; then you sha;; say to Aaron, Take your staff, and thow it down before Pharoah, so that it becmes a serpent.

And Moses and Aaron came to Pharoah, and they duid just as JEhovbah had commanded; and Aaron threw down his staff before Pharoah and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

Then Pharoah also called for the wise men and sorcerers. and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret spells.

That is, each one threw down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed their staffs. And Pharoah's heart hardened, and he did not listen to them, just as Jehovah had said." (Exodus 7:8-13)

So much for your hand waving .... "Hey over here. The Egyptians can do the same thing !"

@sonship said

Yes, I see now the wisdom in numerological scrutiny.

I can't see anything in your observation which causes me not to contemplate some things said by Christian teachers about numbers in the Bible. I don't consider such expositions to be so crucial as make or break wisdom about God's salvation.

They are not magic formulas. And no one I know suggests that ...[text shortened]...

So much for your hand waving .... "Hey over here. The Egyptians can do the same thing !"

The point is sir, numerology is just plain silly, wherever it is applied.

To be honest, you should be a little embarrassed.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

The point is sir, numerology is just plain silly, wherever it is applied.

To be honest, you should be a little embarrassed.

Well, you sit there and hope I am a little embarrassed. But doing voodoo with numbers and seeing significance with them is not the same.

No bible teacher that I would listen to uses numbers as fortune telling.

From my PC I notice:

the branch of knowledge that deals with the occult significance of numbers.

Lee had nothing to do with the occult just because he drew some attention to how Scriptures often employ numbers in a consistently significant way.

From Wike I see this:

Numerology is any belief in the divine or mystical relationship between a number and one or more coinciding events.[2] It is also the study of the numerical value of the letters in words, names, and ideas. It is often associated with the paranormal, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts. [3]

It said it is often not ALWAYS associated with the paranormal .

Nothing, not a speck of Witness Lee's treatment with 1,3,5,7,8,12 etc. in hundreds of messages I have heard had ANYTHING to do with "paranormal".

Nothing in any book or message I heard from Witness Lee since I first heard him in 1974 had ANYTHING whatsoever to do with astrology.

Here are some instances of his usage of numbers as significant that I recall off the top of my head.

God raised the dry land from the death waters in Genesis chapter 1 on the THIRD DAY. It was a symbol of Christ being raised from the dead on the third day.

The river flowing into Eden flowed out into FOUR heads. This signifies the flowing of God's life will go out to all parts of the earth.

The three stories of Noah's ark are related to something divine (cannot recall at the moment)

The measurements of the tabernacle end many times in 3 and 1/2 and 2 and 1/2. This shows something about Christ AND the church go together. Christ is of the great entity Christ and the church.

There is nothing paranormal about the great significance of Christ rising on the third day being known before the foundation of the world by God.

There is noting fortune telling like about seeing the Triune God as man's full salvation hinted by perhaps three levels of Noah's ark.

Lee, in the Gospel of John pointed out the first miracle performed by Jesus, turning water into wine, John says occurred "after three days". But there is no way to know why he mentions "after three days" or COUNT how many days took place from the last thing John talked about.

THIS, Witness Lee believed, was a hint in the resurrection of Christ turning death into life on the third day. John under inspiration wrote the Jesus turned water into wine after three days.

Nothing of personal future prgnostication in that. Nothing bordering on astrology or fortune telling in that with numbers. Sorry.

Witness Lee said that Abraham went to sacrifice his son Isaac as a type of Christ being sacrificed by the father. Genesis says Abraham told his servants that after three days he and the son --- "WE" will return. Lee said this was a type of Christ being raised on the third day. And it shows that Abraham believed that God would raise up his son Isaac against even if he should kill him.

Nothing of soothsaying, fortune telling, or the occult in any of this. And many such instances in his ministry numbers pointed somehow to the glory of God and God's salvation.

No embarrassment here. Some misunderstanding on your part.

It is noted that in Revelation there are lots of sevens.
Seven Spirits of God,
seven lampstands,
Seven churches,
seven angels,
seven seals,
seven trumpets,
seven thunders,
seven bowls

You would have to be rather dull to think seven had no significance in this so-called "mad man's dream". It is not but is of complex design.

There are lots of twelve to near the end.
twelve gates,
twelve manner of precious stones,
twelve months,
twelves fruits of the tree of life,
twelve foundations,

You would be pretty dull to think twelve had no significance in Revelation

And Revelation is the consummation of the whole Bible. So it is no surprise that the Holy Spirit employs numbers which were signigicant elsewhere in the Bible. We're dealing with God. You still think the Bible is not divine communication but some kind of cultural scrapbook.

The bottom line here is that nothing Witness Lee ever said about numbers' significance had anything whatsoever to do with the occult, astrology like fortune telling to anyone or any-ONES collectively.

And he never taught anything so as it being a distraction from his chief burden - Christ and the church.

@sonship said

Yes, I see now the wisdom in numerological scrutiny.

I can't see anything in your observation which causes me not to contemplate some things said by Christian teachers about numbers in the Bible. I don't consider such expositions to be so crucial as make or break wisdom about God's salvation.

They are not magic formulas. And no one I know suggests that ...[text shortened]...

So much for your hand waving .... "Hey over here. The Egyptians can do the same thing !"

I see you haven't checked out the growing number of Rabbis who believe the whole Moses story is fiction, a myth, a fairy tale.
Your deliberate ignorance in this matter is, well, ignorant.
Moses never existed, please adjust your belief system accordingly.

@caissad4

I see you haven't checked out the growing number of Rabbis who believe the whole Moses story is fiction, a myth, a fairy tale.
Your deliberate ignorance in this matter is, well, ignorant.
Moses never existed, please adjust your belief system accordingly.

So any "growing number" of people with an opinion must be right.

The Internet loves bandwagon joiners like you.