The wisest thing Jesus ever said.

Originally posted by sonship

If you really think that he secretly believes in god, then you should not call him an atheist, should you?

You have a point.
But there is a distinction between believing in God and believing [b]into God.

The former is just some objective information that even the evil spirits have. The latter is to trust in God in such a way ...[text shortened]... wn us in Christ, is our best bet. Don't you think that is wisdom to inform us of this ?
I do.[/b]

Agreed that believing there's a god and being a follower of that god are different things.

I wasn't speaking of the billions of people in terms of judgment day. I was thinking more in the present - as they are being told they must convert, or else. The focus was not so much on god's saving them anyway, or not; but more on the pressure applied to them by Christians.

Originally posted by vivify
The "throw the first stone" line is actually pretty amazing, given the context of the story.

This story doesn't appear in the earliest manuscripts, it appears to be a later addition.

Originally posted by sonship
I am surprised nobody nailed me on my lousy chess scores yet.

That was a bit of humor.

All of your postings are humorous to me. 🙂

Originally posted by sonship
I don't claim to be good at reading people.

Then shouldn't you be more cautious about diagnosing people with a secret belief in, and hatred of, a god?

And this in a person who, as far as I can see, has not even shown a slight wavering in the direction of theism.

Originally posted by twhitehead
If I recall correctly, you were once an atheist of some sort yourself, although you did say that you have always believed in some sort of divine being.
So were you at that time also a God hater, or did it not apply to your situation?

If I recall correctly, you were once an atheist of some sort yourself,

When I talk with people like you, I think back really hard and ask myself - "Do you remember? How did you think? How did you feel?"

As I honestly reflect back on past years, I am not sure that I ever claimed God did not exist. I remember making an issue with people about the definition.

Ie. "What on earth do you mean by 'God' anyway. I don't know what you mean by 'God'. "

I had that kind of approach. And I wrote here on this forum that as I recall those days, I think I always believed in something - a Big vibration, or a Force, or a Zen like Oversoul, something pantheistic or panantheistic and at the very least a Great Question Mark of the universe off somewhere.

I do not recall arguing with people that God didn't exist.
I hide out, perplexed, complaining about definitions.

although you did say that you have always believed in some sort of divine being. So were you at that time also a God hater, or did it not apply to your situation?
Reply

I just read down this far. And that is right. I think that is what I recall.

So you may say " So how do you know how an Atheist thinks ? "

Or let's say somebody may respond this way.

As to the question of whether I was a God hater ?
Yes, by senior year highschool, I distinctly remember in English class ridiculing a hymn that the teacher referred to in a way of lampooning.

Of all the young people in class, I alone spoke out encouraging the lampoon. The contempt within me bubbled up and I saw what was deep inside my heart.

I cannot recall whether I was surprised or not. But I recall feeling proud of myself that I joined in to put down the hymn about God in a way of contempt, disdain, like it was foolish and only idiots would go along with that hymn.

The hymn had to do with forgiveness of sins. THAT touched a nerve and the contempt for God immediately raised its head.

The old folks use to say "Everything in you will come out sometime."

Originally posted by sonship
So you may say " So how do you know how an Atheist thinks ? "

No, actually, you have already told us that. You know how an atheist thinks, because the Bible tells you so.
But thanks for the rest of the post which did answer my question. I was genuinely curious as to whether you saw yourself as a former God hater.
The way you talk sometimes you come across as if you see the atheists on this forum as the devil incarnate. I was wondering whether you see your former self in us, or you see us as something far more evil and incapable of reform.

Originally posted by sonship

This sound very much as an interpretation to me.

It is an interpretation - an accurate one.

Do you have reasons to demonstrate [b]"It is finished" from the mouth of Jesus Christ meant something else ?

What is your interpretation then ?

What he said and what he didn't say we know nothing about.

I do ...[text shortened]... an errors unforseen by God, are telling me more about themselves than about the Gospels.[/b]

"What is your interpretation then ?"
You want to repeat myself? Alright: "We only know what the (unknown) writer wrote, and what he wrote is probably what he thought, or remembered if he was an eyewitness, Jesus said. Nothing more. And we shouldn't treat it as more than that." That's my interpretation. An accurate one.

"This is like expecting that God needed to hire a consulting firm to advize the Almighty how to record the most important words and life ever lived on the earth."
This consulting firm is usually called 'the church'. They have told everyone what they want us to believe, blindly, and succeded very well with that. However, as gods PR-consult, they do what every PR-consult does: To make their benefaciour look good. And they do it good.

"I rather take the Gospels as True Propaganda."
Yes, I know. That's why we call it 'religion'.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
And where's the wisdom in that? Everyone facing his own death has this thought as the last one. "Okay, folks, that's it." And then there's exit and good bye.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Fabian, please read the reply again with the Italics replaced with Bold)
"Thanks, wolfgang. Christ's concise phrase: "It is finished" [at the Golgotha Hill Crucifixion signified that all of the sins of mankind had been imputed to Him and judged; that the Father's Justice and Righteousness were satisfied; that the work required to reconcile man to God was completed] remind me that the Wisdom of God motivated by His Unfailing Love provided for the removal of an otherwise insurmountable barrier between man and God and the grace gift of eternal life.

Originally posted by twhitehead
In usual grampy style, he missed the point on several counts. He quoted the phrase not because of its wisdom, but because it reminded him of Gods wisdom. He also assumed that Christ actually said it, whereas sonships claim clearly states that the wisdom must hold up even if the character of Jesus Christ was concocted fictitiously.

God the Father planned it; God the Son executed the plan; God the Holy Spirit empowers God's plan in believers' lives.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
The funny thing is that Jesus lied in that very moment. He knew very well that he would resurrect later on, because so said the prophecy. So when the wise guy said "it is finished" it wasn't his end after all. If Jesus was the son of god, that is.

I think rather some other wise guy wrote it down, decennia after. So what it is written what Jesus said or not said is well behind the curtain of non-knowledge.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
"The funny thing is that Jesus lied in that very moment..."

"It is finished" [at the Golgotha Hill Crucifixion signified that all of the sins of mankind had been imputed to Him and judged; that the Father's Justice and Righteousness were satisfied; that the work required to reconcile man to God was completed.]

Originally posted by wolfgang59
OK. Let's hear it.
Because I can't think of anything that isn't taught in primary school.

I'll play Wolfie.

One comment by Jesus that recently prevented me from getting into very deep trouble with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs is "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, actually, you have already told us that. You know how an atheist thinks, because the Bible tells you so.
But thanks for the rest of the post which did answer my question. I was genuinely curious as to whether you saw yourself as a former God hater.
The way you talk sometimes you come across as if you see the atheists on this forum as the devil incar ...[text shortened]... ou see your former self in us, or you see us as something far more evil and incapable of reform.

The way you talk sometimes you come across as if you see the atheists on this forum as the devil incarnate.
Huh?
That's more than a little bit curious and befuddling.
Having read jaywill/sonship for quite some time I am at a loss how you come to such a conclusion.
Equally curious is how (as believers) we're not supposed to know anything at all about the atheist position (despite a large portion of us formerly holding just such a position, or in some way related).

Furthermore, assuming a person found the key to life, doesn't it stand to reason that the key would necessarily inform the finder's perspective in all things?
While my experience as a former God hater certainly gives me perspective on the topic, it is the Bible alone which offers the most clarifying and accurate influences/causes of the person who has set themselves up against God.
Too, if I have openly acknowledged the limitations of my wisdom or intelligence, why would I rely on the same for those topics clearly beyond my range?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Having read jaywill/sonship for quite some time I am at a loss how you come to such a conclusion.

Have you followed his discussions with me? I do accept that we may get different impressions of people.

Equally curious is how (as believers) we're not supposed to know anything at all about the atheist position (despite a large portion of us formerly holding just such a position, or in some way related).
I for one have never assumed that you know nothing of the atheist position. In fact I am constantly amazed by how you continually refuse to know anything about the atheist position. I have also been amazed by how sonship constantly refuses to listen to my position. It now turns out that he takes his interpretation of the Bibles word over anything I say, so there really is practically no point my posting anything to him at all. In the thread where we discussed the soul and how dependant it was on the brain, I couldn't understand why he kept deliberately attributing to me stuff I vehemently denied. It is now clear that because I am atheist, and there is some verse in the Bible that states that atheists must hold certain positions about the soul, he would simply take those verses as my position and simply ignore anything I said to the contrary.

Furthermore, assuming a person found the key to life, doesn't it stand to reason that the key would necessarily inform the finder's perspective in all things?
Presumably, yes.

While my experience as a former God hater certainly gives me perspective on the topic, it is the Bible alone which offers the most clarifying and accurate influences/causes of the person who has set themselves up against God.
Too, if I have openly acknowledged the limitations of my wisdom or intelligence, why would I rely on the same for those topics clearly beyond my range?
If the topic is beyond your range, stay out of it. Don't try to assert that you know what I am thinking or feel because you read in the Bible that atheists must think or feel these things. Then you just come across as delusional, not as having your perspective informed.

Originally posted by FabianFnas

sonship:
What is your interpretation then ?"

You want to repeat myself? Alright: "We only know what the (unknown) writer wrote, and what he wrote is probably what he thought, or remembered if he was an eyewitness, Jesus said. Nothing more. And we shouldn't treat it as more than that." That's my interpretation. An accurate one.

That is a vague not committal statement which I suppose should translate into "It was probably never said 'It is finished' by whoever and whoever THOUGHT it may have been said. "

Two or three layers of conspiracy theory ambiguity there.

Can you site a scholar from the first 600 years after the earthy life of Jesus who doubted that Jesus said "It is finished" during His death on the cross ?

I am less impressed by some Johnny-come-lately in the last 200 years, removed from the original documents by around 1800 years. I want you to site someone in the earlier centuries CE who put forth your theory -

IE. Somebody wrote something that they thought Jesus said (if He existed at all) and probably got nothing all mixed up.

Maybe what Jesus (if He existed at all) really said was "Hey Peter, please pass me a piece of fish." And after years and years of changing it came down to us as "It is finished."

Anyway, an early textural doubter, within six centuries of Christ's walk on earth, who ?

Anyone paying attention to the thread title?

I'm asking for one and only one piece of wisdom from Jesus that can be
held up to be his wisest words and rank with (or exceed) the wisdom of
others through the ages.

Just one sonship .. I havn't the time to go through your long nonsense rants.