i'm not such a good scholar on the Bible but i think that you would have to search really hard to find offensive anythings coming from J Man
and even if one finds such word, bear in mind that the Bible was written by men and especialy the Scriptures can differ from one writer to another(Mark differs from Luke and John) so these words can only due to bad interpretation by the authors or even bad translation from the original writings
Originally posted by blindfaith101Plenty, but off the top of my head I find the supposed driving of demons into a perfectly innocent herd of pigs which then drown themselves pretty offensive. Also necromancy, sado-masochism, keeping company with prostitutes etc.
Did JESUS CHRIST, do or say anything, that you would find offensive? We have had lately some very interresting conversations. Just wondering is there anything about CHRIST, that you did not like?
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Originally posted by StarrmanPlenty, but off the top of my head I find the supposed driving of demons into a perfectly innocent herd of pigs which then drown themselves pretty offensive.
Plenty, but off the top of my head I find the supposed driving of demons into a perfectly innocent herd of pigs which then drown themselves pretty offensive. Also necromancy, sado-masochism, keeping company with prostitutes etc.
So you think it is better for the demons to wipe out an innocent human being than a herd of pigs? I can clearly see where your evolutionary beliefs are leading you. But believe it or not, a human is of greater importance than a herd of pigs, well at least as I see it.
Also necromancy, sado-masochism, keeping company with prostitutes etc.
What you think is more important, for Him to heal the sick or for Him to say that their sins are forgiven? Didn't he come to save the sinners?
Originally posted by dj2becker
So you think it is better for the demons to wipe out an innocent human being than a herd of pigs?
No, but if the son of god can extract demons, why does he have to use pigs to hold them, can he not just destroy them? Or perhaps he's not powerful enough?
I can clearly see where your evolutionary beliefs are leading you.
I very much doubt you see anything clearly. Perhaps you would like to describe my 'evolutionary' beliefs to me as I doubt that they have anything to do with this thread.
But believe it or not, a human is of greater importance than a herd of pigs, well at least as I see it.
I could debate this issue, but I won't. I do however still wonder at what sort of god would allow a human to be possessed by demons and then only have the power to kill a load of innocent pigs as well. Doesn't sound particularly well thought out to me.
What you think is more important, for Him to heal the sick or for Him to say that their sins are forgiven? Didn't he come to save the sinners?
But isn't necromancy a sin?
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Originally posted by StarrmanNo, but if the son of god can extract demons, why does he have to use pigs to hold them, can he not just destroy them? Or perhaps he's not powerful enough?
Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]So you think it is better for the demons to wipe out an innocent human being than a herd of pigs?
No, but if the son of god can extract demons, why does he have to use pigs to hold them, can ...[text shortened]... t he come to save the sinners?[/b]
But isn't necromancy a sin?[/b]
As far as I know demons are not destroyed, they are eternal beings, fallen angels. They simply exchange hosts. I see no problem with demos destroying a herd of 'soulless' pigs as opposed to a human being created in Gods image.
I very much doubt you see anything clearly. Perhaps you would like to describe my 'evolutionary' beliefs to me as I doubt that they have anything to do with this thread.
Well your beliefs would probably class humans as simply 'a higher evolved animal than a pig'. Whereas I believe that a human was created in Gods image and a pig not.
I do however still wonder at what sort of god would allow a human to be possessed by demons and then only have the power to kill a load of innocent pigs as well. Doesn't sound particularly well thought out to me.
Human beings have a free will. They human was liberated from them and in the process a herd of pigs were killed. Sounds like a fair exchange.
But isn't necromancy a sin?
Correct. But Jesus never sinned. So I suppose your branding Him with 'necromancy' is a false assertion. Probably also depends on your definition. Or maybe you would like to expound on a certain incident to clarify your assertion?
Originally posted by dj2becker
As far as I know demons are not destroyed, they are eternal beings, fallen angels. They simply exchange hosts. I see no problem with demos destroying a herd of 'soulless' pigs as opposed to a human being created in Gods image.
Could he not have banished them back to hell?
Well your beliefs would probably class humans as simply 'a higher evolved animal than a pig'. Whereas I believe that a human was created in Gods image and a pig not.
This may be true, but it is of no import in this discussion, I am challenging why anything had to die at all.
Human beings have a free will. They human was liberated from them and in the process a herd of pigs were killed. Sounds like a fair exchange.
Again, why did there have to be an exchange at all? Was Jesus not capable of merely removing the demons and sending them back to the fiery pit? No animals needed to be harmed in the making of this miracle.
Correct. But Jesus never sinned. So I suppose your branding Him with 'necromancy' is a false assertion. Probably also depends on your definition. Or maybe you would like to expound on a certain incident to clarify your assertion?
I beleive the raising of Lazarus from the dead could most definitely be termed as necromancy.
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Originally posted by StarrmanCould he not have banished them back to hell?
Originally posted by dj2becker
As far as I know demons are not destroyed, they are eternal beings, fallen angels. They simply exchange hosts. I see no problem with demos destroying a herd of 'soulless' pigs as opposed to a human ...[text shortened]... zarus from the dead could most definitely be termed as necromancy.
It was not yet their time. Demons are all still free to do their dirty work. The time will come when Satan and his demons will be banished for all eternity.
This may be true, but it is of no import in this discussion, I am challenging why anything had to die at all.
It is very relevant to the discussion. The thing is that pigs are mere animals and humans are not. Thus it would be better for the pigs to die than for the human to die.
Again, why did there have to be an exchange at all? Was Jesus not capable of merely removing the demons and sending them back to the fiery pit? No animals needed to be harmed in the making of this miracle.
Once again it was not yet the time for the demons to be banished. Their time is coming. That is why they want to take as many people with them as possible. Besides they needed His permission to enter the swine. And as I said the swine are of little significance in Gods kingdom. Jesus did not kill the swine. It was the demons that did that in anger because they had lost a soul.
I beleive the raising of Lazarus from the dead could most definitely be termed as necromancy.
Why would the miracle of 'giving life' be regarded as necromancy to a being that has the keys of death and hell in his hands?
[/b]
Originally posted by dj2becker
It was not yet their time. Demons are all still free to do their dirty work. The time will come when Satan and his demons will be banished for all eternity.
a) How do you know this?
b) Are you saying the son of god doesn't have the power to banish demons back to hell?
It is very relevant to the discussion. The thing is that pigs are mere animals and humans are not. Thus it would be better for the pigs to die than for the human to die.
It is not relevant in that I am not basing my arguement on whether pigs are higher than men on an evolutionary level. For the purposes of this discussion, I couldn't care less which is higher.
Once again it was not yet the time for the demons to be banished. Their time is coming. That is why they want to take as many people with them as possible. Besides they needed His permission to enter the swine. And as I said the swine are of little significance in Gods kingdom. Jesus did not kill the swine. It was the demons that did that in anger because they had lost a soul.
So Jesus gave demons permission to enter swine, rather than send them back to hell. What sort of god does that. Hmm, I've got two choices, I can either banish these demons, or I can grant their request to allow them to kill some pigs. That's some serious priorty problem he's got there.
Why would the miracle of 'giving life' be regarded as necromancy to a being that has the keys of death and hell in his hands?
So one rule for us, another for him. He cannot sin because he's the son of god? How can anyone be expected to take that seriously? Jesus is allowed to get away with something that would be considered a sin, but we're then supposed to listen to him about what sin is and what not to do. That smacks of hypocrisy. You can't judge Jesus by whichever set of rules is most convenient.
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Originally posted by Starrmana) How do you know this?
Originally posted by dj2becker
It was not yet their time. Demons are all still free to do their dirty work. The time will come when Satan and his demons will be banished for all eternity.
a) How do you know this?
b) Are you ...[text shortened]... u can't judge Jesus by whichever set of rules is most convenient.[/b]
b) Are you saying the son of god doesn't have the power to banish demons back to hell?
a)It is rocorded in the Bible that hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels
b)NO!
So Jesus gave demons permission to enter swine, rather than send them back to hell. What sort of god does that. Hmm, I've got two choices, I can either banish these demons, or I can grant their request to allow them to kill some pigs. That's some serious priorty problem he's got there.
Well if you are spiritually blinded you would probably not see the significance of his act. He did have the power to banish them to hell but he chose not to. Think about it. If he banished the demons straight to hell, the people would not see the miracle. They would say that the man was never posessed in the first place. He also did it to show the people what a devastating effect demons can have and that they are capable of moving from one host to another. The pigs symbolise backsliding Christians, who return to wallowing in the mud. This significantly portrays that if you are not living a cleansed life, demon can have the power of entering you.
So one rule for us, another for him. He cannot sin because he's the son of god? How can anyone be expected to take that seriously? Jesus is allowed to get away with something that would be considered a sin, but we're then supposed to listen to him about what sin is and what not to do. That smacks of hypocrisy. You can't judge Jesus by whichever set of rules is most convenient.
Necromancy is defined as "The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future."
I don't see this taking place.
Originally posted by dj2becker
a)It is rocorded in the Bible that hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels
b)NO!
I meant how do you know that he could not have banished them back to hell?
Well if you are spiritually blinded you would probably not see the significance of his act. He did have the power to banish them to hell but he chose not to. Think about it. If he banished the demons straight to hell, the people would not see the miracle. They would say that the man was never posessed in the first place. He also did it to show the people what a devastating effect demons can have and that they are capable of moving from one host to another. The pigs symbolise backsliding Christians, who return to wallowing in the mud. This significantly portrays that if you are not living a cleansed life, demon can have the power of entering you.
I am fully aware of why he chose to do it, I am putting forth a viewpoint that finds his actions offensive, as requested in the thread's title. His showmanship, for want of a better word, is callous and unnecessary. I find it hard to believe that the son of god would resort to crowd pleasing stunts to illustrate his points.
Necromancy is defined as "The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future." I don't see this taking place.
You are right, I was using a broader term of necromancy to cover raising the dead. Necromancy in it's definitatory term is indeed divination rather than resurrection. However I do not see why Jesus is allowed to break the rules to raise the dead. Would you not count the ressurection of Lazarus as a sin? If not, you must acknowledge that Jesus does not suffer from the same constraints and rules as the rest of us. If this is so, how can we consider him a role model for human life? I find this double standard offensive, if any human being had raised the dead he would be packed off to hell. And what is worse, Jesus did it for his own selfish gains, he loved Lazarus and gave in to his own emotional needs.
Originally posted by dj2beckerWas it not written, that before HE drove them out, that they had asked, if HE had come to punish them before time. Could it also be true that the demons were so vile, that the pigs wanted to die.
[b]a) How do you know this?
b) Are you saying the son of god doesn't have the power to banish demons back to hell?
a)It is rocorded in the Bible that hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels
b)NO!
So Jesus gave demons permission to enter swine, rather than send them back to hell. What sort of god does that. Hmm, I've got two c ...[text shortened]... the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future."
I don't see this taking place.
Originally posted by blindfaith101That's funny, cuz reading this forum I often feel the same way as the pigs might have.
Was it not written, that before HE drove them out, that they had asked, if HE had come to punish them before time. Could it also be true that the demons were so vile, that the pigs wanted to die.
ES